Close Encounters of the Legal Kind

John Reed: [00:00:00] Are we alone in the universe? 

[00:00:02] Every one of us has pondered that question. Entire genres of books and movies revolve around it. As the X-Files declared, the truth is out there. Somewhere. 

[00:00:13] Let me go on record with my own thoughts. If a sun is any star with planets in orbit, that means there are one septillion suns in the observable universe and some 700 quintillion planets. Wrap your head around that for a second. 

[00:00:29] Can we here on earth be so arrogant as to think we're the only forms of intelligent life in all of space? What that intelligent life looks like and how they live, think, evolve, co-exist, travel, and view us (assuming we're being viewed), well, that's a whole other series of questions. 

[00:00:49] There's one movie scene that has stuck with me over time. In "Star Trek: First Contact," Captain Picard and his courageous crew travel back in time to earth 2063. Besides fighting the bad guys, their mission is to ensure a garage spaceship inventor completes the first successful warp drive flight. Apparently, Vulcans and other space travelers have a deal that they will only interact with a planet if its species have warp drive capabilities. Kind of like we need to prove we can hang with the cool kids before we get invited to the party. 

[00:01:25] But what if our neighbors in space have revealed themselves already? How do we evaluate the veracity of thousands of reported sightings and encounters that have already been made? And what rights do you and I have to get answers to reveal undisclosed information and to expose misinformation?

[00:01:45] Sometimes it takes a lawyer, a paranormal lawyer, like our guest today. 

[00:01:49] Michael Hall didn't go to law school to study UFO law. The comic books and movies of his youth made him look at the skies and wonder, "Are we alone?" 

[00:01:58] His interests became a hobby, and as ufology – it's a thing, trust me, look it up – as the field of ufology grew, Michael's participation in that hobby allowed him to meet and befriend a wide range of people who would later hire him to handle ufology-related legal issues from the mundane to… well, I'll let him tell you about the biggies. 

[00:02:20] Michael, welcome to the podcast. 

Michael Hall: [00:02:22] Hey John. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate this. 

John Reed: [00:02:26] Certainly, certainly. Now, you are known as the "Paranormal Lawyer." Before we go there, let's talk about the journey you were on before that, which was anything but normal. Tell us about your adolescence, where you grew up and where you lived, and the environments you were in. 

Michael Hall: [00:02:42] I grew up on West 121st Street, New York City, right next door to George Carlin. We had an interesting neighborhood. Spanish Harlem is where I lived, right across the street from Columbia University, where my father went and got his doctor's degree at the time when I was a kid. 

[00:03:00] During those hot summer days, we'd be sitting there at the local newspaper stand reading all the comic books. Superman. Batman. Thinking about people living on other planets and superheroes and all that stuff. That's what I grew up with. Then, of course, I went to the dime novels of the Contactees in the 1950s—all those stories of actually meeting aliens out there in the desert and talking with Venusians. And then, of course, the stories from the government themselves regarding Indrid Cold, guests of the Pentagon, back in the fifties, Valiant Thor, and those kinds of guys. And I'm going, "Wait a minute, this is real stuff now. "Or at least they're talking about real stuff, and it really piqued my interest in ufology, the paranormal in general, even Bigfoot. I mean, I live out in the Seattle area, Bigfoot Zero, you know, for all of the sighting reports out here. So, I've always been interested in the paranormal most of my life. 

John Reed: [00:03:57] Let's skip to college. Where did you go, and what did you study? 

Michael Hall: [00:04:01] I went to Washington State University -- good old Wazoo out there in the middle of the wheat fields of Eastern Washington, and one of the best communications colleges on the planet -- and got a broadcasting degree only because they made you pick a major of some sort. Otherwise, I would have been just taking classes all the way through college and enjoying it.

John Reed: [00:04:24] What did you do with that degree? 

Michael Hall: [00:04:26] My first major corporate position out of college was being Shaker, the Country Bear at Disneyland. It was the funnest summer I ever spent in a job earning $2.09 an hour and being proud of it. Then I get bumped up, and I became actually a tour guide at Universal Studios.  Leave It to Beaver house, the town square from Back to the Future, all the major television shows, and many of the incredible films of the era, this was the seventies and the eighties. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. 

John Reed: [00:05:00] By this point, you've ruled the entertainment industry. You've fully utilized your broadcast journalism degree, and you decide to go to law school. What was the impetus there? 

Michael Hall: [00:05:10] At one point, I was lucky enough to land the most amazing job in the green room backstage at Universal Studios Amphitheater, being the host of the stars like Frank Sinatra, hanging out with the Rat Pack, Sammy Davis Jr., the rock groups, the country acts, all the comedians. I got to see my old buddy George Carlin again. Dan Aykroyd and John Belushi, the Blues Brothers.  It was quite an amazing timeframe. And of course, during that period of time, I did that for quite a few years. I started thinking to myself, "Wait a minute. I could be doing this for the next 20 years, or I could maybe get a career." So, I decided to take whatever I learned and go to law school at that point and kind of get a normal lifestyle.

John Reed: [00:05:56] What was your intention while you were in law school? Did you have designs on a particular practice area, a particular size firm, or what you wanted to do with your degree? 

Michael Hall: [00:06:07] I was just tired of being fired by other people. I wanted to work for myself, and I wanted to have a profession where I would never get bored. Whatever you are interested in, you can do that in the law. But I've always been that kind of generalist who enjoyed doing a little bit of everything and helping people out with all sorts of various legal issues. So, I had a general practice for over 33 years. Still do. 

John Reed: [00:06:36] And you became a fixture in your community. You were a general practitioner lawyer. You did everything from wills and trusts and business contracts and real estate, family law, criminal work, etc., and eventually got on the bench. Tell us about that. 

Michael Hall: [00:06:53] I had always been into alternative dispute resolution because the real issue is, is people cannot afford the legal system nowadays. They can't afford lawyers. I mean, my meager hourly rate was $225 an hour. And that was just on the low end.  I volunteered to be a settlement judge for the Thurston County Superior Court Family and Juvenile Court Division. They gave me, for many years, six divorces a day, three in the morning, three in the afternoon. Family law, custody battles, and all those kinds of things. Basically, an hour apiece trying to settle the family law cases to free up the calendar schedule and free up the timeframe and costs of litigation at the court. 

John Reed: [00:07:43] I'm certainly fascinated by your normal law practice, but let's switch gears to your paranormal law practice. At what age did questions about extraterrestrials and UFOs and what we now call UAPs – unidentified aerial phenomena – when did that become more of a passion than just an interest when you were younger?

Michael Hall: [00:08:07] It kind of started in college for me in my undergraduate years in the 1970s, middle seventies. I joined the APRO organization, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization out of Tucson, Arizona, with Jim and Coral Lorenzen. They were the largest at that point and even bigger than MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network, which is the major one nowadays. I'm also a consultant and a member of MUFON for many, many years. But back in those days, it was APRO, and they put out a monthly bulletin with sighting reports, and I really got interested in the idea that these things could be real. Real people like police officers and Army-Navy personnel and respected scientists and doctors and lawyers were sighting these things. 

[00:08:58] During law school itself and then starting my own practice, there's always people that have general legal issues that just happened to be ufologists and researchers. Peter Davenport from the National UFO Reporting Center was one of those longtime friends that just periodically would pop up with legal questions. For instance, he decided he wanted to purchase an abandoned Nike missile site underground in Eastern Washington. And he said, "Well, you're the only guy that I know that would be able to help me get through the morass of government red tape to purchase a missile site." So, I helped him do that as well as forming nonprofit corporations for them to do business under. Some of my friends from NASA came along. Dr. Richard Haines from NARCAP, which is the pilot reporting agency. You go along, more and more people start giving your name and referrals to other folks that are in the field of the paranormal, not just UFOs, but Bigfoot and ghosts and all sorts of cryptids and things.

John Reed: [00:10:05] Let's go back. You weren't just a member of APRO; you were a field researcher. Tell me what your role was as a paranormal field researcher for that organization. 

Michael Hall: [00:10:17] They would parcel out various reports that came into their headquarters in Tucson and send them out to their various members in different locations. If there was something in Seattle or the state of Washington, I might get a call and a little packet in the mail saying, "Here's the contact of an experiencer in your neck of the woods. Go check it out and give us a report." Most of them were lights in the sky, maybe orange orbs flashing across the midnight sky at a supersonic rate. All sorts of discoid and ovoid objects being sighted, maybe even hovering over cars, and causing electromagnetic effects. All sorts of stuff like that was just quite enticing to someone who was out there in the field, trying to determine if this was a reality or not. 

John Reed: [00:11:08] Did being in the Pacific Northwest offer you more work or any advantages when it came to talking with experiencers or doing your ufology research?

Michael Hall: [00:11:19] The state of Washington is, as most people know, is quite a hot spot for UFO activity. It started out in 1947 at Maury Island down at south Puget Sound. And then Kenneth Arnold and Mount Rainier the same year, just a month apart. The Olympic Peninsula in the state of Washington, which is the western side of the state right on the ocean, is ground zero for Bigfoot sightings, out there in the rainforest of Washington state.

[00:11:48] I run across people on my daily routine that have seen a Bigfoot with their own eyes, and they're telling me their experiences. And it's hard to dismiss people that are not there to try and impress you. If they're just telling the story, they're risking the stigma of being called crazy, and they're still willing to explain their experiences with you up close and personal. And then, of course, you've got the stories later on where UFOs and Bigfoot are being seen at the same time or in close proximity to one another as well. 

John Reed: [00:12:22] What does your paranormal law practice encompass? What practice areas or legal disciplines are involved? You talked a little bit about friends of yours in your circles coming to you for legal help, but when it comes to ufology-related matters, what types of things would you be doing? 

Michael Hall: [00:12:41] A good example would be Grant Cameron, one of my longtime Canadian researcher clients who literally is like a mole. This guy goes and researches what the U.S. presidents knew or know about UFOs in each presidential library across the United States. Every once in a while, he gets a hold of me, and he says, "You know, Mike, I got this document. I need to have you take a look at this thing to determine is this a classified document. Does it have some kind of a top-secret stamp on it or anything like that that we need to worry about from Homeland Security? Is this something that I can talk about, and can we vet this to make sure that we are not just passing along misinformation?" So, a lot of it has to do with the background that I've developed through the years, getting used to looking and reviewing government documents. FOIA requests and all of those kinds of things.

[00:13:43] So it's kind of comes down to an expertise of what are we looking at here when we're coming across research? Is this something that's important, or is this something that we need to steer away from at this time? 

[00:13:56] But then you've got some real interesting questions that would come up, for instance, in real estate law. There's the issue of, if you don't disclose a haunting on a piece of property, even though you can't prove a haunting necessarily, if you don't disclose the idea of a property potentially being haunted, it could rescind the real estate contract. Those kinds of things are strange anomalies out there, but literally, if you don't know the anticipated outcomes of certain problems that crop up, your clients are kind of out of luck.

John Reed: [00:14:35] During your career, you had these ufologists become experts and even become celebrities. These friends of yours now have the ability to appear on TV. So, did you represent them as their entertainment law lawyer as well? 

Michael Hall: [00:14:50] Well, you're right. My good buddy Kevin Day, Chief Petty Officer Kevin Day from the USS Princeton, Jason Turner and Gary Vorhees, and some of these Nimitz veterans have been approached recently, of course, because of their "Tic Tac" UFO sightings in 2004, with production companies nowadays wanting to get them on TV, interview them, and do video productions with their material. Of course, there's also all sorts of non-disclosure agreements that need to be reviewed and signed and maybe revised to allow them to do what they need to do as far as making a living, but then not spilling the beans on the specific production that they're working on at the time. Kind of normal Hollywood stuff that these guys who are experiencers have no clue about or legal issues that they hadn't even thought of. 

John Reed: [00:15:45] You have the brand now of "The Paranormal Lawyer," and obviously that's what you do, but where did that brand come from?

Michael Hall: [00:15:53] Yeah. Good question. A good buddy of mine, Dave Scott, the broadcaster up in Canada who has Spaced Out Radio, kind of monikered me that after being a guest on his show many, many times. People picked it up, and my own bar association here in the state of Washington contacted me a couple of years ago. They did a feature article entitled "The Paranormal Lawyer" on my law practice. And the ABA even picked it up, you know, and the National Bar Association. So, I've been monikered by the actual bar itself as the, probably the one and only paranormal lawyer so far. No one else is. 

John Reed: [00:16:33] In personal branding, it's good to be the one and only, so that's good for you.

[00:16:36] We're going to take a short break. And when we return, Michael will tell us more about paranormal law and the challenges of being a paranormal lawyer. Stay with us.

[00:17:42] We are back with lawyer and ufologist [00:17:45] Michael Hall. 

[00:17:46] Your paranormal law practice has focused on representing and sometimes defending people on the front lines. People who are attempting to collect knowledge or expose knowledge. Is that a fair characterization?

Michael Hall: [00:18:02] The whole idea of representing clients is giving them the ammunition that they need to try to do, accomplish what they are trying to do. And disclosure is the bottom line here. Ending the truth embargo, as Steven Bassett would say, against UAP and UFOs and the potential alien presence on the planet. That has been around for decades and eons and is very quickly eroding right now, as we all know. We can see when we look around ourselves. We are headed as a planet into a major paradigm shift, where many of my clients are there to prepare people for. And that's one of our goals is to keep people from falling apart here during a paradigm shift that's going to be quite astronomical when it happens.

John Reed: [00:18:52] You've had your own unexplained encounter, one involving photos you took of the moon in 2012. Tell us about that. 

Michael Hall: [00:19:00] Up until about 2012, I could have said that I really never had any major UFO sightings. I was always interested in the subject and saw maybe lights in the night sky periodically. I am coming home at about 8:30 PM on January 10th, 2012, from my son's middle school parent meeting. I sign into the meeting at about a little before seven o'clock. I'm going through a horrific divorce at the time, so I decide to take a photograph of the sign-in sheet to prove that I was there and being involved in my son's schooling. I go to the hour-and-a-half meeting. Come about 8:30, this meeting's over with, and I jumped in my car and rolled down the hill about five minutes away to my house. I get out, and there is the most beautiful, full moon out that night. No stars, just a beautiful moon hovering low over the roof of my house. So, I decided, for some reason, to whip out my iPhone 4 at the time and just take a picture of the moon.

[00:20:07] One second apart, I take two photographs of the moon from the front steps of my house. The next day at the office, I plug my iPhone into my laptop like I normally do to charge it up and get ready for the day, when it prompts me on my computer, do I want to download any new photos that I took the night before onto the laptop. And, of course, I just click the mouse and say yes. And consequently, the photographs that I took over the moon show up very big monitor-wise on my laptop. And I'm noticing in the photograph that there is a red dot hovering below the full moon, totally distinguishable from anything else in the background or anything that I knew that would be hovering over my house and below the moon. I get real curious, and I decided to enhance the photograph with an app that I had on my phone and lightened it up. Sure enough, there ends up being a triangular, almost lava lamp-shaped object, dark in color, black, hovering below the moon, with a red dot in the center of it. Now, I'm going, "Well, that's crazy. I don't remember seeing that there." I go to my camera roll on my phone, and this was what really freaked me out. Those two photos of the moon ended up being just before the last photo on my camera roll, which was the sign-in sheet at the meeting. Now that's impossible because I took the sign-in sheet photograph to prove I was there, then came home and took photos of the moon. But no, when I go to the metadata on my phone, it tells me that these two photographs of the moon were taken 17 hours earlier than I thought that they were taken. Not at 8:39 PM that night, but 3:39 AM on the same day, 17 hours earlier. 

John Reed: [00:22:22] And did you do anything with the phone, you know, sending it to a researcher or investigator or an engineer to try and explain the time shift?

Michael Hall: [00:22:31] None other than Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photo analyst par excellence, Navy officer retired. And It stumped him as well on the whole idea of the timeframe that it was taken at, the fact that the GPS coordinates are revealing where it was taken and what time it was taken, and my testimony that it was supposedly taken after I took a photograph of the sign-in sheet on the same camera roll. We haven't been able to get down to the bottom line of it yet. I think at one point, I would like to go through a hypnosis session and be able to dig in deeper there and find out what the heck happened that night.

John Reed: [00:23:17] Michael, I have to ask what sort of criticism or public response have you faced for your involvement in ufology and your belief about UAPs and visitors from space? 

Michael Hall: [00:23:30] Believe it or not, I have been pleasantly surprised with the response of my own legal colleagues in this regard because I literally at first was a little reticent to explain to my fellow bar members, people on various committees that I work on for the bar association, my involvement with UAP and that kind of thing. But I'll tell you what, every time someone finds out a little bit of a snippet of what I do, they corner me real quick, and they tell me their story. 

[00:24:00] Most everyone has some kind of an anomalous event happened to them in their lifetime that they've never been able to talk to anybody about. The stigma, of course, that's been mentioned in the UAP task force report has been keeping people quiet for decades, and now people are feeling a little bit vindicated with the UAP task force unclassified report and all the mainstream media and the Navy and the Air Force and the Department of Defense and the Pentagon coming out with front-page articles in the New York Times. 

John Reed: [00:24:37] I was going to ask you about that.  In 2017, the New York Times published an exposé about the Pentagon's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. What did that do for ufology? Did it bring or add a certain amount of legitimacy to the conversation? 

Michael Hall: [00:24:54] It was a game-changer. Changed everything. Basically, when we look back a hundred years from now, that will be one of the major turning points in the history of the planet. The snicker factor has gone away now, and people can actually talk about these. When you're talking Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb coming out and talking about his program now to study UAP just in the news yesterday morning, this is just like timely stuff that's happening amazingly broadly in the mainstream media, and it can't be ignored any longer.

John Reed: [00:25:32] In 2019, someone anonymously tweeted the "core secrets," 15 pages of notes, allegedly compiled by physicist Eric Davis in 2002 immediately following an interview with then-Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson. Categorically, you were not the anonymous source, but you did provide legal counsel to someone who was at least tangentially involved. Can you tell us that story? 

Michael Hall: [00:25:58] I sure can. That is probably the highlight of my forensic analysis, investigative career at that point, the "smoking gun memo." I get a text out of the blue January 2nd, 2019. It's encrypted. I never received an encrypted text before. "Michael, I am about ready to drop a major UFO bomb, and I need to run it by you as the paranormal lawyer." It took me a while to figure out this is from my client, Grant Cameron, the Canadian researcher who literally has for decades, since 1975, been working on the phenomenon of UAP and trying to break the truth embargo. 

[00:26:47] He initially was approached by a gentleman at a conference saying, "Mr. Cameron, I just need five minutes of your time. It will be well worth it." He shows Grant Cameron the first page on an iPad Mini of the "smoking gun" Admiral Wilson memo, and Grant Cameron's jaw drops to the floor. He recognizes people, names, programs, and processes in this memo that lead him to believe that no one should have had this memo, that this was a behind-the-scenes communique between a high-ranking government scientist, Dr. Eric Davis, and the interviewee that he was talking with, Admiral Thomas Ray Wilson, second in command in charge of all the military intelligence departments, interviewing him about UFOs. The bottom line is this document confirmed the existence of the Roswell, New Mexico, crash, the retrieval of a flying crashed disc, and alien bodies – dead and alive. The fact that they (the military) are in possession of an interstellar craft that can travel through space, our atmosphere, underwater, and through dimensions. 

[00:28:12] We ended up for the next six months after getting this document from this anonymous source vetting the document and checking and double- and triple-checking to figure out if there were any mistakes in the many, many names and dates and programs and processes that were named in the 15 pages to see if we can find any fault to the document. I could not find any of the document's faults in that regard. Everything, even the people that were totally out of the blue and we didn't even know who they were, they checked out as far as being involved behind the scenes in this whole UAP phenomena. That was then eventually leaked by some anonymous source, not Grant Cameron nor myself – despite what Richard Dolan announced to the world at one point, that I had leaked the document myself – but it was leaked on Twitter on June 6th, 2019, at 7:43 PM.

[00:29:18] And that's what I have pegged as I believe the time when the planet went into a new age, looking at some kind of confirmation at all from a government source that we are not alone in the universe. 

John Reed: [00:29:34] In the midst of your investigation, your validation of the document, you did some lawyering. You did some pretty creative lawyering, too. Tell us about how you protected or planned for the release of that document from your client or in your client's absence, I should say. And then tell us about the copyrighting of that document after the fact and your strategy behind that. 

Michael Hall: [00:29:57] When this thing came out, Grant Cameron was a nervous wreck. You can imagine someone handing you what has been termed the Holy Grail of ufology, and now all of a sudden, he has the proof, confirmation of proof of reality that we are not alone in the universe.

[00:30:19] What the heck do you do with this? Is it classified? Is it not classified? Is it Homeland Security-protected? Is it not? Is this something that we can just release to the public, or are there ramifications of doing that? 

[00:30:33] From my over three decades of estate planning experience, I realized that if something ever happened to Grant Cameron, the world is out of luck as far as getting this document out into the public. So, I created what I called a whistleblower disclosure trust that we funded this document into. We named successor trustees of this document, and we had multiple locations where this same document would have been located. Here's the lawyering that came into this, John. We published the fact that we had this disclosure trust now in effect and that if anything ever happened to Grant Cameron, his loved ones, or any of his associates, that this document would be immediately released to the public worldwide, giving some kind of a disincentive to leave grant Cameron alone. 

[00:31:32] But also, during the process, I am trying to figure out when it was actually leaked on Twitter, how I was going to get this thing off of Twitter preserved for the future, just in case someone took it down immediately. As I was anticipating this thing taken down within a matter of moments. And I couldn't take the time to go through line by line 15 pages at a time to determine whether someone was sending up some disinformation on maybe a document that's similar to the real document which I had. So, what I did is I literally was able to download a screenshot of each page. There were these pop-up advertisements that kept covering the text.  It took me about two hours to figure out how to get it off of Twitter. 

[00:32:25] At about 3:30 in the morning, I had a flash of, I think, genius at that point. And I thought to myself, "Wait a minute. What if I copyrighted this document?" I said to myself, "Wait, it's not my document. I can't copyright the document." But then again, I'm starting to think, "Well, who's going to stop me from copyrighting the document? Who's going to come forth and say, 'You can't copyright this document. It's my document.'" 

[00:32:55] So, I added my copyright language to the bottom of the page. It was kind of like a little trap I was setting. If anybody came forth and tried to claim that my copyright couldn't stand on this document, they're going to have to tell me how they have standing to be able to claim that. 

John Reed: [00:33:17] And your client is safe, too, no harm ever befell him. 

Michael Hall: [00:33:21] Exactly. And that's the fascinating part of this thing. Giving Grant Cameron some legal advice through this process where he said every other minute, he was about ready to just to throw in the towel and say, "Forget about it, I'm never going to do anything in ufology again." 

John Reed: [00:33:37] What impact do you think the presence of sophisticated, complex life on and from other planets will have on mankind?

Michael Hall: [00:33:47] There are many stories throughout every civilization on the planet of gods coming from space, molding societies for eons. So, that is how it's going to affect potentially any disclosure of the confirmation of life on other planets. There'll be some people that will want to worship them. There'll be some people that will want to fight them. If we look at our own society and how we have ebbed and flowed ourselves with technology over the eons, you can probably see the footprints of that happening over and over again on our own planet.

John Reed: [00:34:27] Should this happen, when this happens –as you say it has happened and we're just learning more about it – it has a confirming power to it, right? And yet, it can be and will be extremely disruptive to other institutions who have long denied it; I'm speaking particularly about religion.  

Michael Hall: [00:34:47] As a matter of fact, I have thought ahead in that regard. And I think basically when reality hits, the fact that we might've had a cure for cancer decades ago. That aging probably didn't have to happen the way it does. The planet shouldn't have been polluted the way was. I think the major blowback that's going to happen is something that the powers that be are trying to come to grips with at this very moment.

[00:35:18] In reality, if we lose our corner pastors – the Baptist church, the synagogues, the amans, the people are in there that fall back on for religious purposes traditionally – we are going to be in big trouble. The faith-based fabric of our planet is what holds us together.

[00:35:41] A lot of people are faith-based. We need to help them get over the coming paradigm shift that is going to really kind of hit them from the side here and try to take over or modify, at the very least, their general observations of reality.

John Reed: [00:35:58] Michael, I just have to say, this has been an extremely eye-opening conversation. I've learned a lot, and you've brought a new spark to my fascination with our aloneness in the universe. And in the questions that go along with it. 

[00:36:12] If people want to learn more about [00:36:15] you, where should they go?

Michael Hall: [00:36:16] They can always look Michael W. Hall up on Facebook. 

John Reed: [00:36:21] Maybe we can even get copies of the photos that you took in 2012, so people can take a look at those as well. Look for those things on the Sticky Lawyer's website. 

[00:36:29] Michael, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I really do appreciate it. 

Michael Hall: [00:36:34] Oh my pleasure, John. Thank you so much. We'll do it again.

John Reed: [00:36:37] And thank you for listening. To hear this episode again, or to download other Sticky Lawyers episodes, visit stickylawyers.com. There you'll be able to view episode transcripts, read behind-the-scenes notes, and recommend a standout lawyer you know who might be a future guest. 

[00:36:54] And hey, could I ask you to do me a favor? Whether this is the first Sticky Lawyers episode you've downloaded or the latest in the series, would you please give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Podcaster or stickylawyers.com? A comment would be great, but even a star rating – you know, like a five-star rating? – would be terrific, too. Everyone at Rain BDM works really hard to produce this podcast, and we would greatly appreciate the shoutout. 

[00:37:21] Until next time, I'm John Reed, and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.