Making an Impact Through BigLaw Pro Bono Service

John Reed [00:00:00] You've probably heard the phrase pro bono, which is short for pro bono publico, which in Latin means for the public good.

[00:00:08] Although the words “equal justice under the law” is carved in stone above the entrance to the U. S. Supreme Court, access to justice is not universally available.

[00:00:19] Every year, millions of people in this country encounter legal issues, and many lack the means to hire a lawyer. Think unfair eviction, property foreclosure, debt collection, denial of benefits in health care, domestic violence, child abuse, neglect. The consequences of not properly pursuing or protecting one's rights can be costly, and not just financially.

[00:00:41] Yes, there are low to no-cost legal aid organizations, but as critical as those services are, the access to justice gap is far wider. For many people, pro bono representation by lawyers who volunteer their time and experience may be the only way to resolve a legal issue.

[00:00:59] But here's the thing. Giving back through pro bono work benefits more than just the client in need. Pro bono cases provide training opportunities for lawyers and can even change the law for large groups of people. And some of the most vocal proponents of pro bono work and its benefits are large law firms, like really large law firms.

[00:01:23] Which is where our guest today fits in.

[00:01:26] Lucy McMillan is the chief pro bono counsel at Arnold & Porter, a firm of more than 1,000 lawyers with offices in the U.S., U.K., Europe, and China, and with revenues of more than $1 billion in 2022. As highly regarded as the firm is with its paid work, it also has a long and enduring tradition of providing representation and counsel for the public good. Unpaid work. Under Lucy's watch, the firm has received numerous recognitions, honors, and awards for its pro bono involvement.

[00:01:56] Lucy, welcome to the podcast.

Lucy McMillan [00:01:58] Thanks for having me.

John Reed [00:02:01] What you do at your firm may surprise many people when they think about a large law firm. Tell us about your role. I'm going to have you define what your role is for us.

Lucy McMillan [00:02:11] As you said, I'm the chief pro bono counsel at Arnold & Porter, and for me, what that means is I spend about 50% of my time administering and overseeing the firm-wide, pro bono program, and I spend the other 50% of my time handling and supervising my own pro bono matters. In terms of the administering and overseeing of the pro bono work, it really involves many, many things.

[00:02:35] Our primary job is to bring in new pro bono matters for attorneys throughout the firm, and to vet those matters, and to match people with cases so that everyone around the firm is doing meaningful pro bono work.

John Reed [00:02:49] I want to go into that a lot because I think the managerial and oversight role you have is really interesting. Talk about your personal docket.

Lucy McMillan [00:02:58] Well, I began my career in education law, so I always have an education matter. It's very important to me. I've had dozens of special education hearings throughout the course of my career, and I'm sort of advocating for appropriate services and placements for students with disabilities. And on the education front, I've also been involved in litigation concerning access to remote learning during the pandemic for low-income students who didn't have access to broadband or remote learning devices.

[00:03:27] And I'm also involved in work around discrimination and hostile environments in school districts. Outside of the education area, I work on civil rights matters. I recently represented a mother whose newborn baby was removed from her custody in an equal protection and due process case against New York City's administration for children's services.

[00:03:47] I represent families separated at the border in damages lawsuits. I've done unemployment hearings, asylum cases, amicus briefs on a variety of issues, and it really runs the gamut, but with a general focus on education and civil rights.

John Reed [00:04:02] There's a term that the firm uses on its website talking about the pro bono practice: impact litigation. And it may seem self-explanatory, but I'm going to have you define that for us as well.

Lucy McMillan [00:04:15] Impact litigation? It is actually fairly hard to define in the sense that I would say all of our cases have an impact, but impact litigation is generally defined as something that impacts a large amount of people. So, it might be a certain legal principle or a right that you're advocating for in the courts that can then be applied to a large group of people.

[00:04:37] Often impact cases are class actions, but not always. Impact work is one of the areas that we focus on. But we also do a lot of individual representation as well.

John Reed [00:04:48] And, for those that may not be aware, this is the 50th anniversary of the famous U.S. Supreme Court case of Gideon vs. Wainwright. And there's an Arnold & Porter connection. So that certainly was an impact. Maybe you could talk about that for a minute.

Lucy McMillan [00:05:03] Yes. And that's an interesting example because Gideon vs. Wainwright was really the representation of one individual person, but it did have just this wide-ranging impact. So, Gideon versus Wainwright in 1963, the United States Supreme Court called up one of our founding partners and asked him to represent Clarence Earl Gideon, who was an indigent defendant in a criminal case.

[00:05:27] And with Arnold & Porter's representation, the Supreme Court decided this landmark decision that forever cements the right to counsel in a criminal case. And that has far-reaching consequences for criminal defendants and the criminal law and criminal practice.

John Reed [00:05:43] We hear a lot about access to justice, access to the legal system. Clearly, we know there are underrepresented or non-represented individuals in this country. Give us a broader picture of what legal services, the need for assistance for access to legal justice, what that looks like.

Lucy McMillan [00:06:04] I think there's an unending need for pro bono. There can never be enough pro bono lawyers for all of the cases out there.

[00:06:12] I live in New York City. If you look at New York City alone, if you look at just the number of recently arrived migrants in the city who need help filing asylum applications, it's in the thousands, and that's just filing the applications.

[00:06:25] There are lawyers needed for unemployment benefits, veterans benefits, education, housing, all the ways that many, many people interact with the legal system on a daily basis.

[00:06:37] I am really, at the moment, just thinking about cities. But if you then think about all the rural areas across the country where there's not as many lawyers, there are so many people who could benefit from pro bono representation. And if any lawyer in the country wanted to do a pro bono case, there was one out there for them.

John Reed [00:06:53] We've talked a lot about representing individuals. Do you, do your colleagues at the firm, does Arnold & Porter get involved in representing organizations, nonprofits, or others whose mission is benefited by that type of powerhouse legal representation?

Lucy McMillan [00:07:10] There are two different answers to that question. We often co-counsel with many large national nonprofits who have a mission to represent LGBTQ individuals or who have a mission to work in civil rights or who have a mission to improve education access for everyone. Often those organizations will serve as co-counsel, where we will bring our litigation skills and our resources, and our trial skills, and the organizations will have a subject matter expertise. And together we partner on these cases.

[00:07:46] We also do represent organizations from time to time when they themselves need legal assistance. But often those are unique representations. We had a major case a few years ago representing Planned Parenthood when they were being sued as an organization. We represented them in trial court and the appellate courts in California. But oftentimes our legal services colleagues will be co-counsel on these cases.

John Reed [00:08:12] The business of law, particularly at a large law firm, means billable hours. How do you and your firm attract and engage attorneys at all levels in pro bono work? What's the attraction?

Lucy McMillan [00:08:28] I actually think it's pretty easy. People want to do good work. People are interested in helping others. A lot of people went to law school to do good. And many attorneys at Arnold & Porter want to incorporate pro bono into their practice, and many of them come here in part because of the pro bono program.

[00:08:51] I think things like Gideon versus Wainwright and some of the early cases that we did at the firm have created this reputation. And then it really attracts people who are interested in incorporating pro bono in their careers. And then that's self-perpetuating.

[00:09:05] But in terms of attorneys who are here and asking them to do pro bono work, there are so many benefits.

[00:09:12] First of all, I truly believe doing pro bono work makes you a better lawyer. You are just in courts. You are seeing how attorneys and, individuals throughout the country are mostly interacting with the legal system. Most people interact with the legal system in housing court, in education hearings. In unemployment hearings. And a lot of lawyers never go into those courts. And it is very, very helpful for you as a lawyer to understand how those courts work. You have to think on your feet. They're very chaotic and that's beneficial for you, for your practice.

[00:09:47] I think pro bono gives young attorneys opportunities that they would not normally have on their commercial cases. Sometimes it gives partners opportunities. Some of our commercial cases go on for years and years. They're extremely complex. Pro bono cases can sometimes go to trial very quickly, or you can have a hearing quickly. It allows people to flex those muscles and build those legal skills.

[00:10:10] And then I think, working with somebody on something that is the most important thing going on in their life. You know, if somebody has lost their benefits or somebody has, is in danger of losing their child, it is the most important thing that has happened to them in a long time. And for an attorney to work at that time in their life is very meaningful. And people remember their pro bono cases for many years.

[00:10:34] Then I would say finally, you are able to work with people at the firm that you might not otherwise be able to by doing a pro bono case. You could work with somebody outside your practice group, outside of your office. And that I think, fosters a lot of community within the firm too. So, I actually don't think it's hard to get people to do pro bono. I think it's a pretty easy sell.

John Reed [00:10:55] I would also imagine, Lucy, that because of your passion, there are probably people that avoid you in the hallway because they know if they say hi to you, they're going to end up with a pro bono matter —.

Lucy McMillan [00:11:04] I think that's fair to say. I also think that because we live in such a virtual, remote, email-driven world, that everybody, I think ducks when they see my emails coming. I sometimes introduce myself to people who I've never met around the firm, that, "Oh, Lucy McMillan. Yeah, I've, I've seen your emails."

[00:11:22] So, yes, I think I think that people are familiar with what I do,

John Reed [00:11:26] You raised an interesting scenario just now that you have attorneys that practice in one area, and they may handle a pro bono matter that's in a completely different area. Yes, it could still be litigation, it could still be, you know, some sort of dispute, but it's different from their stated designated practice area. How do you help them overcome that apparent knowledge gap?

Lucy McMillan [00:11:50] There are a couple ways. First of all, I tell people that, I mean, you are a smart, educated, capable person who can figure this out. And people have figured it out many times before. We have a lot of internal resources at the firm. I can point them to other people who have done these kinds of cases.

[00:12:08] We also rely on our legal services partners who are real experts. So, for something like immigration law, which changes. all the time. It changes depending on the administration. It changes depending on the courts. It's extremely complicated and changes all the time. We rely on immigration experts to help us make sure that we have our forms up to date and to review everything before they go in. So, we provide a lot of resources and crutches for people. And then when they feel comfortable, they just go on and then they say, "Oh, that was so great. Can I do it again?"

John Reed [00:12:42] It sounds like it can be infectious. It's like Frito Lay potato chips. You can't have just one, right?

Lucy McMillan [00:12:47] Absolutely. Once you meet a client and you realize how much you can impact someone's life, of course, you want to do it again.

John Reed [00:12:53] So this kind of goes to what we're talking about, goes to your oversight, your management, your administrative role. Talk about that. I mean, you certainly get the personal benefit of handling your own docket, but you are managing all these resources that you just talked about. You're also managing the relationships with legal services organizations, legal aid offices, other organizations that could benefit from Arnold & Porter's attorneys' help. Talk to us about that role.

Lucy McMillan [00:13:24] Well, as you said, a main part of it is developing cases and bringing cases in. And I spend a lot of time and the other members of our team spend a lot of time developing really deep relationships with legal services partners. Many legal services organizations now have a pro bono counsel. So, I have a counterpart at many organizations, and I think we try hard to develop deep relationships rather than have shallow relationships with many, many organizations. And we try to really listen to what they are saying is happening on the ground, what the needs of the community are, where we can be helpful, because we really want to take cases that are impactful, that are meaningful, that will give our attorneys a good experience, and we don't want anyone to ever feel like they're just doing busy work. So, I think listening to nonprofits and figuring out which ones are good matches for our firm is a huge part of my job.

John Reed [00:14:22] Does the firm have a certain set of areas or interests or causes that it tends to gravitate towards in its pro bono work?

Lucy McMillan [00:14:33] We have a lot of voting rights cases. That is an area where I think we are real leaders, but overall, the program is driven by the needs of the community and the interests of our attorneys.

[00:14:48] And a big part of my job is figuring out and understanding the pro bono landscape. It's constantly changing. There are always new crises in the world. There are always new issues of the day, so understanding where we can be of use is really a big part of it.

[00:15:06] So for example, when there was the withdrawal from Afghanistan, there was a lot of interest in helping Afghan asylees. So, we set up a whole project around that, and over the past few months, we've had many, many of our clients granted asylum, which has been very rewarding.

[00:15:23] As I mentioned before, during the pandemic, we helped people with unemployment counseling. We don't usually do this, but we set up our own sort of hotline and database. We just took calls directly and helped people get their unemployment benefits.

[00:15:35] So really a lot of what's going on in the world drives what we're doing., but at the same time, we try to balance that with not forgetting about the everyday needs that are happening, the housing, education, the food stamps, the things that are, are always, happening in the community. And we try to balance sort of the big issues of the day

John Reed [00:15:56] I think we all would like to think and we would agree that you do what's right because you do what's right. But I have to imagine there may be some potential pro bono matters that you would handle that might have contrary interest to some of your other clients, the firm's larger clients. Is that an issue? How do you deal with that type of sensitivity?

Lucy McMillan [00:16:16] Well, there, you know, there's obviously actual conflicts, like we have a conflicts process to deal with any actual conflicts. We have a pro bono committee that is made up of partners, counsel, and associates across the firm. So, every single matter gets approved by the pro bono committee. So, there's a, a big range of people on the pro bono committee in terms of practice, group, and seniority, and office to sort of vet matters and make sure that they're appropriate for the firm.

[00:16:45] I would say 99% of them are approved. In terms of actual, more business conflicts, they don't, they genuinely do not arise very often. I think our firm is very out there on our pro bono work. It is very known that we do a lot of pro bono work on high-profile issues, and I think a lot of our clients are interested in that.

[00:17:10] I mean, we go and do presentations at some of our big clients on our voting rights work or on our civil rights cases. Attorneys across industries are interested in these issues. So, it has not become an issue in the sense that we're not allowed to touch political issues because it might cause problems somewhere.

[00:17:30] It's just not the way that it works.

John Reed [00:17:32] You bring up the idea of talking to clients about pro bono. In my preparing and understanding your role and others like you, there are oftentimes when in-house lawyers and corporate legal departments want to get involved in pro bono, but because they do what they do every day and they certainly don't practice in a law firm, and they're not exposed. Are you helping them source pro bono opportunities as well?

Lucy McMillan [00:17:54] Yes, we have lots and lots of interest from many of our corporate clients, and we run many clinics. And clinics are these short-term, spend an afternoon doing a training and an intake for a legal services client. And we partner with our corporate clients on many of those in small business counseling, nonprofit counseling, immigration, housing.

[00:18:18] And we also have some cases where we have an in-house attorney join our team for some portion of it. And as I said, we often give presentations to in-house attorneys as well about our work. So, there's a lot of ways that we're engaged with our corporate clients on this. And I would say over the last five years, it's become more and more common for our commercial clients to want to engage with us on pro bono work.

John Reed [00:18:42] You mentioned your early interest in education law. How did you get where you are? Was public interest law, education law, or even the law, your intended career path when you were in high school or even college?

Lucy McMillan [00:18:57] I don't think I had an intended career path in high school, to be completely honest. I

John Reed [00:19:01] Oh, come on. Not like every student knows exactly what they want to be when they grow up?

Lucy McMillan [00:19:06] I think I was not in that camp, but I did when I got to college. I took a law class my freshman year, and I had a really inspiring teacher, and that sparked my interest. I mean, we had very deep discussions as a class about the First Amendment and things that I thought I felt very strongly about.

[00:19:25] I'd hear the opposite side and think, well, that's a good point too. So that really sort of sparked my interest and then I spent two years at a law firm as a paralegal after college, I decided that it was what I wanted to do, although not probably that work exactly that I was doing then. So, I went to NYU Law School because of their very developed public interest program. I thought I wanted to be an education lawyer. I always was very interested in education work, and then in law school, I kind of straddled the public interest/private law firm world and had internships at both places and tried to develop connections so that I could keep my options open.

[00:20:08] After law school, I did two years at Advocates for Children, which is a very well-known education organization in New York City, as part of an Equal Justice Works Fellowship. And Equal Justice Works has fellowships across the country and, actually, Arnold & Porter sponsors Equal Justice Works fellows. So now I get the privilege of reviewing applications for that.

[00:20:29] But after my two-year fellowship was up, I decided to go to Arnold & Porter to see what a law firm was like, get some training, and I ended up liking it much more than I anticipated. I really had great mentors and I made a lot of friends here and stayed doing commercial work for a very long time and at some point felt okay.

[00:20:54] I would very much like to go back and do nonprofit work, public service. So, I think I need to start looking at nonprofits. But because I was so happy at the firm, I thought maybe I'll try to pitch this pro bono role and see if there's any chance I could stay and sort of have the best of both worlds and the firm agreed. And I've been in this pro bono position since 2016.

John Reed [00:21:20] So you're the first of your kind in this role? You pioneered the role?

Lucy McMillan [00:21:25] I am the first pro bono counsel at Arnold & Porter. We have a long-term pro bono professional in our D.C. office, who is not a lawyer who administered the program. But I am the first pro bono lawyer at the firm. Yes.

John Reed [00:21:39] I want to go back and ask you about law school for a minute. Unlike college, you don't declare a major in law school, but yet you chose a law school because of its prominence in public interest law. Once you get past the first-year courses that are required for anybody in law school, how did you, or how did NYU help you kind of fashion a public interest degree or major, if you will? Concentration?

Lucy McMillan [00:22:07]  One thing I will point out about NYU, which was why it was so appealing to me, is that not only did it have a good public interest program, but it had a public interest loan forgiveness program, which allowed you to pursue a career in public interest and not worry about paying your loans, which was hugely important and I think a, a big factor for people who are going to law school to consider.

[00:22:30] And then when I was at NYU, yes, I took my first-year courses and then I worked in a variety. I worked at a clinic, which is sort of a hands-on law school course in public policy. I took a lot of education law classes, but I have to say, as I  got further in law school, I realized the best thing to do in law school is pick the classes with the best professors regardless of the subject matter. So, my third-year law school class doesn't really look like my career. You know, I took a lot of income tax and other things, because the professors were very, very good and it was great.

[00:23:04] And so I, I think really what was important was the atmosphere at the law school. The fact that there was a lot of internships. There were a lot of student groups doing public interest work. I volunteered at shelters, helping people fill out forms for benefits. There was just a lot of opportunity to make connections and to learn about what a public interest lawyer did that was so important at NYU.

John Reed [00:23:29] Any professor that can make income tax interesting. I would actually go back and take that class.

Lucy McMillan [00:23:35] You'd be surprised how much policy is in income tax. It was all about who do you tax and why.

John Reed [00:23:42] As my colleagues know, I am famous for saying I went to law school because there would be no math. When they required me to take tax, it was not what I bargained for.

Lucy McMillan [00:23:51] Yeah, there is some math in there.

John Reed [00:23:52] There was some math in there.

[00:23:54] You touched on it a little earlier, but I would love for you to tell us about the term I use for lack of a better one is greatest hits, things of which you're most proud; pro bono matters that you've handled of which you're most proud.

Lucy McMillan [00:24:07] Yes. Well, when I think about my, sort of what I remember most about my pro bono work, I really think about my individual clients because those are the people that I can picture in my mind.

[00:24:20] One case that stands out was a young man who as a teenager I helped get special education services and I was able to then go on and see him graduate from high school and he then had an internship at a law firm.

[00:24:36] So that was, that was just rewarding. I knew him well and he worked very hard to put to good use the services he got. I advocated for a mother who lost custody of her two-year-old, and she was reunited with that two-year-old. And they sent me a video together afterwards saying thank you. And it was really, really meaningful. And they're, I'm still in touch with them and they're still very happily living together years later.

[00:25:00] Even sometimes, even things that seem not that big of a deal, like getting benefits for people during the pandemic. Somebody just could not get through to the overwhelmed system. And I got through and I got them their benefits and just a call saying "I have money in my account for the first time in two months; I can breathe," was really meaningful and I think drives this kind of work going forward.

[00:25:23] And then on a larger scale, I was part of a team that secured a settlement for victims of gun violence from the store that sold the gun that was used to injure and kill their loved ones. And it was very emotional and a very difficult case. And I think giving them that sort of peace at the end of it, although, of course, it doesn't bring back what they lost was really inspiring. And again, I'm still in touch with many of those individuals today.

[00:25:52] And then I just want to say, aside from the cases, I mentioned this before, but working on a pro bono matter is really beneficial in so many ways. And if you're on a complicated case that is meaningful to you, working with a team of people on that matter. I've been working on a case for five years with a team at the firm right now. And we've become really good friends because of it. And we have this connection to this case and to each other. And I think, when I think back about greatest hits, part of it is the teams that I was on, and the friends I've made.

John Reed [00:26:26] I hadn't thought about the idea that in addition to the personal satisfaction you get from representing a client who really has a need, that at least at Arnold & Porter, and I'm sure elsewhere, because of the people that you partner with within your firm or in these other organizations, that's as fulfilling over the long run too.

Lucy McMillan [00:26:49] Absolutely, and some of these cases are really very, very hard and they're hard intellectually. They're hard, legally, but they're just a slog. Sometimes you're fighting against a really big system or you're fighting against a system that doesn't want to move, or for whatever reason they're difficult. And so, getting those wins when you get them with a team is a very bonding experience.

John Reed [00:27:11] Yeah, I'm also impressed with, and granted I don't have as much knowledge about this as you do, but I'm impressed certainly with Arnold and Porter providing the resources. When I practiced, which goes back a long time ago, I did have a draw to do a pro bono matter. I don't, there was nobody at the firm.

[00:27:28] It was a decent-sized firm, but there was nobody at the firm who was coordinating that. Instead, I went to the local Bar Association and asked, and, of course, they had all sorts of opportunities.

[00:27:38] So I guess I'm jealous that I didn't have the experience that so many of your colleagues have at Arnold & Porter, that they know that there's people and resources and information and all sorts of support that they can get for handling those matters. So, kudos to you for that.

Lucy McMillan [00:27:52] Yeah, and I think that's really important because I think that when you're doing a case on your own and you don't have a lot of support, it can be very overwhelming, especially if it's in an area of law that you don't practice, or you have a family court case that feels really dire, but you have the resources to know what to do with it. I mean, that can be very stressful and can turn people off from pro bono for a very long time. So, I think that's part of my job too, is to make sure everybody feels supported and feels like they're having a good experience so that they'll do more.

John Reed [00:28:22] So you're based in New York, but as I mentioned earlier, the firm has offices all over the place. Are you yourself or with your colleagues in those other offices, are you helping them to form relationships with local community groups or nonprofits or other people in need where they are?

Lucy McMillan [00:28:40] Our core pro bono team, we have somebody on the West Coast who has a lot of relationships on the West Coast. We have two people in D.C. who have very extensive relationships in D.C., and then our other offices, we have pro bono committee members who we either help develop relationships with nonprofits or they on their own have some.

[00:29:00] We also work with a lot of national organizations, so we work on things that are sort of across offices and then even internationally. We have a very active pro bono committee in London, and they have developed their own relationships that we are there to advise and help with and review co-counsel agreements or whatever they need.

[00:29:21] But they are very good at developing their own relationships. So, one thing that we're very focused on is making sure that every office has both national and very local opportunities because there are many people that just want to help their own communities. And so, we want to make sure they have that option.

John Reed [00:29:38] To the extent that you're at liberty to say, are there any matters you're currently working on or maybe major issues that the firm is currently working on in the pro bono space?

Lucy McMillan [00:29:48] There are many, many issues that the firm is working on. We have, as I mentioned before, we have many voting rights issues that are being litigated right now. I am personally, as I said, working on a matter for a family separated at the border. We received a summary judgment decision, which was favorable.

[00:30:07] And so we are planning to go to trial on that case in the next year And, so that's a very ongoing matter. On a smaller scale, I have an immigration hearing next week. And, we just settled a case with New York City about Child Protective Services and their treatment of our client. So, there's many, many ongoing matters. I could go on forever.

John Reed [00:30:32] You mentioned your work is 50% your own docket and 50% kind of administering this wonderful program. That may be 50% and 50% on paper. How do you manage it? I mean, that's a pretty demanding docket.

Lucy McMillan [00:30:44] It's demanding, and I will say that the email situation is out of control. I know, I think everybody feels that way, but it is just out of control. I could spend my whole life answering emails, so I don't really know. I can't answer that question other than to say I take one day at a time and look and see what's happening.

[00:31:02] We have a fantastic team, and we all support each other, but it is a fire drill every day, and I think we all must just like being busy because it is, it is busy all the time.

John Reed [00:31:13] Lucy, I applaud you and what the firm is doing. I didn't know as much about this subject, this area, before speaking with you. I appreciate the education. I'm sure our listeners will as well. Thank you for spending time with us today.

Lucy McMillan [00:31:26] Thank you so much for having me.

John Reed [00:31:27] Hey listeners, if you'd like to learn more about Lucy and Arnold & Porter's pro bono activities, please visit StickyLawyers.com where we've posted links to her bio and other resources.

[00:31:39] Regardless of where you found us today, whether that's Apple Podcasts or Spotify or YouTube, wherever, please take a moment to hit the follow button. That way you'll be sure to get new episodes when we release them, and you'll also let us know that you're a fan and we would appreciate that.

[00:31:55] Until next time, I'm John Reed and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.