From the Barre to the Bar: An Immigration and IP Lawyer for the Ballet World

Transcript: Sticky Lawyers #33, Cielomar Puccio

John Reed [00:00:00] I love a good mashup. You know, where you take two or more disparate things and bring them together to make something distinct on its own? We see it all the time with food and playlists. A chocolate milkshake and fries, strawberries and balsamic vinegar, the Bee Gees with Pink Floyd, Earth, Wind, and Fire with Ozzy Osbourne. And yes, those last two things are real; look 'em up.

[00:00:29] I love a good mashup in a law practice too. But a lot of lawyers and law firms struggle with how to market seemingly disparate practices. They think that because the two areas don't nicely fit together, that's a problem. Here's why strange law combos work.

[00:00:45] First, they are memorable. I know this because right now, you are still thinking about the Bee Gees, Pink Floyd, Earth, Wind, and Fire, and Ozzy. Admit it.

[00:00:54] Second, they are authentic. It's rare that a lawyer conjures up two unrelated practice areas and decides to pursue both of them. There's usually a story that's personal to the attorney. It could be based on how they grew up, the family business, pre-law experience, or an interest that turns into a business opportunity.

[00:01:15] Show me an attorney with a uniquely memorable and uniquely authentic brand. And I'll show you a sticky lawyer.

[00:01:22] The practice of law often involves artistry, sometimes even performance art. Today's guest has channeled her performing arts background into her own memorable, authentic brand. Miami attorney Cielomar Puccio has devoted much of her life to ballet, and as a lawyer, she now counsels dancers, choreographers, and others in the industry on legal matters involving — and here's the mashup — immigration and intellectual property. I'm looking forward to having her explain how the combination is working for her.

[00:01:54] Cielo, buenos dias. Welcome to the podcast.

Cielo Puccio [00:01:57] Thank you for having me.

John Reed [00:01:58] Tell us about your ballet career first.

Cielo Puccio [00:02:01] I didn't start like everyone assumes, very small. I did start dancing when I was around 12 years of age. And when you need to become a professional by the age of 18, starting at 12, it's already a little late.

[00:02:15] In ballet, you need to be very flexible and have extraordinary dancing conditions, which you can only achieve by time. So, starting at 12, being already a little bit developed, it's hard to get to those conditions. Now, many people have gotten them. But in my case, it was hard. I loved dancing. I still dance, but it has always been something that I struggled.

[00:02:40] It's hard for me to do. And I think that is why I like it because it doesn't come easy for me. So, I started dancing by the age of 12, like I said, and by the time of 18, when I needed to do the jump to professional, I didn't. I just decided to keep dancing as a hobby. And just go another professional, let's say regular route.

John Reed [00:03:05] Give yourself some credit here. It's not like you're only, you know, dancing in the studio and taking classes. You're still performing. You have been performing with companies for, well, I would imagine all of your dancing career.

Cielo Puccio [00:03:18] Well, yes, yes. I have done many performances with many different careers. I am technically now preparing myself to do an appearance in The Nutcracker in a small school here in Miami. So yes, I still perform, and I love it. It's something that I love to do. I just didn't do the jump to become a professional dancer. Let's say it that way.

John Reed [00:03:40] Sure, sure, sure.

[00:03:41] You know, we talk to a lot of guests who are involved in a community either because they're in an industry where it's rather insular or their hobby keeps them within a small group, or the nature of their practice is tailored to a particular group of individuals.

[00:04:01] I would imagine, because of your, most of your lifelong involvement in dance, that that provides you instant credibility with the dance community, as opposed to somebody that's coming from the outside, who doesn't necessarily speak the language, the language of dance, you know, doesn't understand the environment of dance.

[00:04:23] Is that a fair statement?

Cielo Puccio [00:04:25] Yes, of course. Since I've been dancing all my life and it's fair to say that, yes, I have done ballet, but I've done other areas in dance. I have danced ballroom dancing, jazz, contemporary. So, I have done plenty in the dance industry. I've also been a receptionist for a dance school.

[00:04:44] I've done performances, helped an assistant in creating performances. So, there's a wide variety of dancing experience that I have and, in that field, in many different aspects. And that gives me an edge, a knowledge that I have amongst other attorneys that maybe had no idea of what they do. So yes, when a dancer comes to me and they have a legal issue, I know how to solve it because I know her or his background in dance and of course the legal background.

[00:05:15] And actually that's how my company started with having someone reaching out to me because of that unique expertise that I could offer her.

John Reed [00:05:24] So let's go back and talk about the origins of your legal career. So, you made the decision, or maybe the decision was made for you, not to make that jump professionally in dance.

[00:05:35] When you made the decision not to pursue it, what was next? What was college? What was law school?

Cielo Puccio [00:05:40] Well, I didn't start thinking about going to law school. I did my bachelor's in advertising and public relations. I worked a year and a half, almost a year in a big advertising firm in Puerto Rico. That's where I'm from.

[00:05:54] And I was looking to do something else. Either pursuing a master's in advertising or doing something else, but I didn't want it to stay that way. And for some reason that it's still unknown this day to me, my grandfather, since I was little, was always telling me, "You know, you're going to be a lawyer. You're going to be a lawyer. You're going to be a lawyer." It's very funny because he's not a lawyer. He's an accountant. No one in my family is an attorney. No one, not a cousin, no one. My parents are actually doctors. So, I didn't understand why he wanted for me to do that. But when that time came, I said, you know what? Why don't I pursue law? Maybe he was right. Maybe he saw something in me. And that's how I started law school. I applied, and I luckily entered to the school that I wanted in Puerto Rico. And I studied law. So that's how my career in law started.

[00:06:49] Now, all of this time I kept dancing. I have to say that. Never stopped dancing.

John Reed [00:06:55] Dance has become your outlet. Is that correct?

Cielo Puccio [00:06:57] Yes, especially in those hard times in law because, of course, studying law was very hard for me. I come first. I'm very extroverted, and I like to perform, so I like to act. When I did advertising, it's something that you get together, you create ideas, it's very creative, very acting upon.

[00:07:17] When I started law, is sitting down with thousands and thousands of books and reading quietly. So definitely, I have to say it was challenging for me at the beginning and I needed a break from that. And dancing was that outlet. It was something that was passionate for me and that I can move and do something that I was used to doing.

John Reed [00:07:38] One would think, based on your own admission of being extroverted and wanting to perform and be out there, that litigation would have been your calling. When you were in law school, what were you thinking you were going to do with your law degree and your law practice?

Cielo Puccio [00:07:53] When I was in college and having parents that are doctors and thinking about litigation, yes, of course, my aim was always litigation, and I was thinking maybe going on the medical malpractice route.

[00:08:04] In Puerto Rico, that's a very big field, and it has to be a lot of litigation in the federal arena. So, it's something really good for attorneys there. And curiously, when I took my class in criminal law, the professor thought that I would be good in criminal law. So also, we're talking about the litigation area.

[00:08:24] I've never thought of doing something passive. It was always around the litigation area. Yes.

John Reed [00:08:30] So you got your law degree, admitted to the bar, and I want to talk about that in a minute. What was your first job in the practice?

Cielo Puccio [00:08:37] While I was studying, I did some work as a law clerk and assistant for some attorneys. They were usually in the contract side, in the civil side. I did my practice in law school in civil, and we did a litigation of a case, so that was something really good, again, because my aim was litigation. But it always happens that when you start looking for a job, you more or less have to adapt to what appears out there.

[00:09:08] And what appeared to me was to work assisting a very important family law attorney in Puerto Rico. So that's what I started in the family area. Now there's a lot of litigation there, divorces, custodies, alimony. So yes, I started in litigation, but in that area in family law.

John Reed [00:09:28] So, what came first, your first dancer client, or the opening of your own law practice?

Cielo Puccio [00:09:35] My first dancing client. Okay. Because what happened was, all of this is in Puerto Rico, but ten years ago, I got married to a North American that lived here in Miami, and that's where I went from being in Puerto Rico to coming to Miami. Now I had my practice in Puerto Rico around estate planning, around family law, but coming to Miami, I am not barred in Florida.

[00:10:01] I'm still not barred in Florida. So, I had to look for something else. So, I started looking into the federal area, which I could with my Puerto Rico bar. And that's where I started practicing in immigration. And you know, that one of the areas in immigration is visas. And I continue taking my dance classes always.

[00:10:24] And my teacher knew that I was a attorney and she had an extraordinary ability dancer with her that was having issues with her visa. And she told in front of the class. “You know what, why don't you go to Cielo? She is an attorney, and she's one of us.” Ah, and that was my light bulb moment. Okay. That is what I should do.

[00:10:51] I should create a practice in which I could combine my knowledge of dancing and my knowledge of law, and as an extra benefit, help and aid this dancing community, which I love, and I've been part of for so long.

John Reed [00:11:09] So prior to that moment. When somebody else declared that you were the go-to person, it hadn't occurred to you before to tailor your practice, to bring your law practice and your passion for dance together?

Cielo Puccio [00:11:23] Really, it hadn't. I have to admit that I was looking into, since I started advertising and public relations, I was looking also, and I did like it, enjoyed it, and I knew about trademarks and copyright law, I was looking of maybe adding that into my practice. But I've never looked at just tailoring my practice to an audience.

John Reed [00:11:49] You mentioned that you were initially licensed in Puerto Rico, and for the majority of people listening to this, I don't think people would understand the distinction between practicing in Puerto Rico and practicing in a U.S. state. Talk to us about the difficulties you had and what you did. I believe you're also licensed in the District of Columbia and why you did that and what was the impetus for that?

Cielo Puccio [00:12:12] Yes. Well, the Puerto Rico situation is very difficult. And if we were discussing this topic in Puerto Rico, it would be even really hard because everyone has an opinion. And in Puerto Rico, we are very adamant in our opinion I want us to stand by. But technically in the legal area, even though Puerto Rico is a territory, think about it, having a license of another state of the country.

[00:12:37] Now, again, having and wanting to litigate, when I started in immigration law, what I did was I worked a lot in the removal proceedings area, specifically going to various different detain centers, representing clients there, all around the nation.

[00:12:55] So usually when you go to the detain center, there's usually someone there. You tell them, “I want to see my client.” You put your bar, and they let you in. And that's when I saw the lack of knowledge of people about what the Puerto Rico bar was. In many situations there, I encountered many officers that didn't understand, but that Puerto Rico is also like a license of any other state.

[00:13:20] And they would tell me, “No, you cannot see the client because you're not an American attorney,” or “You don't have an American bar, you're an international.” And it's not true. And because I encountered that a lot and sometimes even questions from clients. “But are you barred in the U. S.? Because you said Puerto Rico.”

[00:13:37] Yes, but even though we're a territory, it is part of the United States in that area. Our university is an American Bar Association University accredited. Because of that, I decided to become licensed in the District of Columbia. To try to, maybe don't go through that, even though I love explaining when the people give me the chance.

[00:13:57] But when it becomes hard, okay, you don't want to accept my Puerto Rico bar. Here is my Washington, D.C., bar, the capitol. So, what are you going to say now?

John Reed [00:14:06] So you're official. You were official before, but now you're really official.

Cielo Puccio [00:14:10] Yes, I am.

John Reed [00:14:12] That's another thing I think a lot of people may not understand, at least non-lawyers listening to this, is the idea of a federal practice as opposed to a state practice.

[00:14:22] And immigration, and for the most part, intellectual property, there are some state issues involved with certain elements of IP, but those two things, for the most part, are governed by federal law, which allows you to practice in federal courts across the country.

Cielo Puccio [00:14:40] Yes, and I want to make that clear for other attorneys. I do, when I create my contracts, I let the client know that I am licensed in those states. And what I'm going to touch is based on those states and that I live in Miami, Florida. I am not barred in Florida because I want to be ethically correct all the time. And like you said, the majority of those fields, you work in the federal arena. Where there's an issue that is going to involve state, I just step back, and I have a bunch of referrals, which I could refer my client to, to not get into that dilemma that, of course, I don't want it to.

John Reed [00:15:17] Let's dive a little bit deeper into your two practice areas. Immigration is a very charged word these days in the public discourse, of course. In terms of your immigration practice and working with artists, define your immigration practice.

Cielo Puccio [00:15:33] Okay, well, I have worked for other attorneys, and I have done many things in immigration. But when it comes to my practice, first of all, I like to focus like in a boutique-style practice in which maybe I have to admit to my colleagues it's not that cost-efficient, but I do everything with my client because I enjoy it.

[00:15:54] That is my outlet for enjoyment and to do something that I really do like. So, I deal with the client myself. I don't even have a secretary, and I limit it to what I do very, very closely. I do basically what is the O's, the P's, and the EB visas. So, it's going to be literally dealing with extraordinary-ability clients, international recognized groups, culturally unique groups in the field of artistry, specifically dancing.

[00:16:28] Yes, I've had clients and consultations of other things, but I stick to artists, specifically ballet. So, it's something very, very limited that I do, as you can see, it's not litigation for the majority. If I need to litigate or appeal any case, I refer it out. So now I do a lot more paperwork, but it's basically that.

[00:16:49] O, Ps, and EBs, maybe NIW. But again, it's visas, getting visas for my client in extraordinary ability because of their expertise in arts.

John Reed [00:17:00] Does your work also extend to family members? So maybe assisting with spouses or partners or children coming to the U.S. as well?

Cielo Puccio [00:17:09] Yes, so all of these spouses, children, and any aid that they need. Maybe someone that is going to do makeup for them or help them, all of them are along, and they're supplemental to the O visa.

[00:17:22] So it's going to be, if the primary is O1, these are going to be O2 or O3. So yes, I work with them all along because they are inside this category.

John Reed [00:17:31] I'm curious in terms of how you're sourcing your, your work unquestionably, a lot of it is referrals, just because you've worked with people and they talk, and Cielo is the person to go to. That's fantastic. Do you have relationships with dance companies, with agents, with people that work with the performers? Is that part of your network as well?

Cielo Puccio [00:17:55] I do. And I actually represent a company, a dance company in Puerto Rico. And also, dancers. Yeah. Like you said, word of mouth.

[00:18:05] If I get a visa for a client and he comes to the United States, he lets the owner of the company, let's say, know how they got their visa. Or I also work with them because if they're going to be the petitioner, so that way they get knowledge of me, the school, the company. I also have a friend that does PR for some dance companies, and she knows about me. And yes, so word of mouth, but I have to say social media have helped a lot.

[00:18:32] There are people that have found me on social media. “Hey, I saw your profile. So, you're an attorney, but this, I don't understand.” You explain to them, and they then say, “Oh, I need someone to help me there.”

[00:18:44] I also like volunteering. I volunteer in centers for our law. Yes, they work more with what is the fine arts, but I also volunteer in other places. I like to volunteer. There's many people in this area that they don't have the resources. It's something that we need to say, you know, the clientele, and my audience is resource-limited. We dancers are not millionaires, and we do not get paid millions of dollars. So, I like to help. And I do take even pro bono cases if I think they are merited.

John Reed [00:19:16] You've also been published in a few different places. You've written articles. What's interesting to me, of course, I have a marketing undergrad before I went to law school, you have advertising. So, you and I, we speak that same language, which is great. And so, you've obviously embraced this idea of promoting your practice.

[00:19:32] You understand your brand. When you write articles, and you submit them to these publications, and they're industry publications, have you found that your contributions, your thought leadership, is more readily accepted by these publishers because you are one of them? You are, you come from the dance community?

Cielo Puccio [00:19:54] I really don't have an answer for that. I want to say that when I reach out to them, they maybe see some kind of acknowledgment in me. But even though through the process, they're very rigorous of what needs to be submitted or not. So maybe yes. But still, they're quite rigorous, specifically when I have written to specialized industries, because I assume that everyone that reach out is specialized also.

[00:20:24] Different if I reach out to a more commercial magazine, but if it's something that is in, for example, I like to write for dancing magazines, magazines related with dance. I assume that everyone that reach out maybe are also expert in the subject. So, they are going to be very rigorous. What I have seen is sometimes those magazines reaching out to me so that I can speak out about what I know, which I find quite interesting. That they were the one that reached out to me.

John Reed [00:20:55] So, you didn't get a pass just because you are a dancer. You had to know what you were talking about, but you've built the relationships and delivered quality content. So now they're reaching out to you asking for contributions.

Cielo Puccio [00:21:06] Exactly. That's what I think I could say. Yeah.

John Reed [00:21:09] Okay. Let's switch and talk about your trademark and copyright practice because I find this fascinating. First off, again, to be clear, I say intellectual property; you don't do anything on the hard side, the patent work. We're talking about the softer, what we call the soft IP, the trademark copyright.

Cielo Puccio [00:21:27] That's correct, that's correct.

John Reed [00:21:28] I think a lot of people would understand copywriting a musical work, a song, or trademarking, you know, a logo or something like that. How do trademarks and copyrights come into play with your dance clientele?

Cielo Puccio [00:21:45] Well, copyright, it's easier than trademark, because it's not only copywriting a song, but it's a piece of dance, a dancing piece, or a whole ballet performance. And as dancers, we get hired many times to work for a school or to work for a dance company. And when you read those contracts, among the work that you're going to do is choreograph pieces.

[00:22:09] So, yes, there's always the clause of work for hire, but if there's not that clause or if that clause could be studied and there are things that could be fixed, there's always the argument or the issue that choreography was done by me. And I own it so I could register, or I can protect it, or maybe I could send it to you, but just during a period of time.

[00:22:34] So the copyright issue, I've been addressed by many dancers that are also choreographers. And this is the argument that we get into. What do you sign or how do you want to sign it before they haven't signed it? Or what do you want back?

[00:22:49] And we know that this is something really big. George Balanchine, as we all know, had did many pieces, many wonderful pieces during his time. And now there's a foundation of the pieces. And if you want to perform any of his pieces, you need to go through the foundation, get their authorization, pay an amount of money, and this is all because of copyright law.

[00:23:11] So this is very important for dancers, and dancers need to be aware of this. There's been some other contributions. I should have looked for this name by Jack, JaQuel Knight. I think he is the one. He's the one that got the copyright of “Single Ladies. “

John Reed [00:23:29] For Beyonce.

Cielo Puccio [00:23:30] Yes. JaQuel Knight. So, he's a choreographer, and he is one of the big voices out there creating awareness for choreographers on what you are worth and how you should copyright and protect your work.

[00:23:48] Remember, if I am a choreographer, and I do a piece for a company, and maybe they pay me for that piece $1500, you could say that up front that looks like good amount of money, especially in the dance industry. But how many times can they repeat that piece? And for how many years if you gave out your rights? So, he is one of the persons creating awareness.

[00:24:12] He's a choreographer also about, hey, we need to copyright our work and protect it. And he has done a platform with help of some others to make this an easier process because copywriting a piece of work of dance is not easy. Why? Because remember you need to follow an annotation system because it has been done in a way that someone else can look at it and reproduce it. So, it's easy a song you write it down, but how you're going to write a dance, you know, that's when it becomes a little bit more complicated.

John Reed [00:24:47] And that's a great example. So, I think probably maybe everybody listening to this will have seen the Beyonce video.

[00:24:57] It's not just the movement of the hand in “Single Ladies” that is copyrightable. It has to be the entire body of movements if you, no pun intended, the movements that make up that entire piece that is copyrightable. I guess my question is how much do you need in terms of different movements to reach that threshold?

Cielo Puccio [00:25:19] That's a very, very good question because in the past and how the evolution of copywriting dance work has been, you have to have like this whole story, and it has to have some kind of elaboration. But what happened? TikTok happened, and now there are this burst of 30-second dances. So again, this is something that is evolving all the time.

[00:25:44] This is why these nuances need an attorney, because it will depend on how unique, how artistic it is, and how much you can do in those 30 seconds. So, I don't want to give this answer because it's a very lawyerly answer, but it all depends. But this is what we're moving towards, and this is also why this area, it's so interesting and so changing because it has to change with what is happening in our world. And social media, especially COVID, we know that has changed the way that we see our world, definitely.

John Reed [00:26:20] Talk to us about how the pandemic affected your practice.

Cielo Puccio [00:26:25] When the pandemic hit, you know that everything was closed, and people had to reinvent themselves. And what better way to reinvent yourself when you're a dancer, you're a creative, that's what you're doing all the time.

[00:26:38] So this pushed dancers to do something for money. The majority of the dancers, even though they have a contract, you get paid per performance usually. There's exceptions, but that's the usual way to get paid. So, what now, if you're not going to have a performance, not only that, how I'm going to train if I don't have the studio to go to, I need to keep my body training.

[00:27:02] So that's where dancers evolved to looking for different outlets to train and to doing alternative dance-related careers. Let's call it that way. So many of them, what they did is go look at space in your house and maybe through Zoom, through social media, start giving classes. And maybe I charge a little for classes, and that's how I start making money.

[00:27:27] Others went a completely different route. So, I know of some business owners that what they did was, you know what? People still need to buy their pointe shoes. And we that use pointe shoes know that you need to try them on to see if they're comfortable, if they are what you want. So, how I kind of go to the store, well, there's these people that started creating minivans. Or, instead of food trucks, pointe trucks. So that they can go towards you, and you can then try on the pointe shoes and wear them. Others did, you know what, let me do subscription boxes, different subscription boxes with articles and things that dancers will need and send them to them. And that way we can limit the contact with each other and still do something profitable.

[00:28:14] So all of these new small businesses starting emerging, some of them so profitable that even when the COVID restrictions stopped and everyone reopened, some of them stayed. They continued dancing but stayed with those businesses. Some of them retired and continue with those businesses, but now there's all these small businesses, so what are you gonna do?

[00:28:37] One of the most important things to do for any small business, including dancers that do this, is trademark your name. Okay. Because it's like your name; you have a name, you want it to be unique. Yes. Sometimes our name is not so unique, but you want your business then to have a unique name so that everyone out there can recognize that that is you and no consumer can be confused.

[00:29:00] Especially if it is a business that grew on social media. So, all eyes are going to be on it. There's going to be many people that want it to maybe resemble you.

[00:29:11] Well, it is important to trademark. So that's how this area of trademark is also related to dancing.

John Reed [00:29:18] So it sounds like your trademark work, not that it was non-existent before, but the pandemic, it just exploded because of all these new ventures that the dancers were getting involved in to make money because they couldn't perform.

Cielo Puccio [00:29:35] Yes. Yes. And it was not non-existent because there always have been, I have wonderful clients that were former dancers and that they still like me, like dance. So, they created businesses around the dancing arena. And they are dancers, so they understand that, and they reach out to me because of my expertise in that area or because of my experience in that area.

John Reed [00:29:58] Sure. And you're very clear. You've been very clear thus far about what you don't do. You've decided to focus on, and not just ethically, but as a conscious business decision, you've decided to focus on immigration and trademark and copyright. But you've also talked about employment contracts and how they may not suitably provide for created works.

[00:30:22] There's also these companies that have started, you're not handling those things, right? So, if it's, if it's going to be a transactional matter or employment or tax or family law or whatever, even though your client is coming to you, you're not going to handle that.

Cielo Puccio [00:30:36] Yes, I can, of course, guide him towards a referral base that I have and I have referrals in many different places, and they could handle them.

[00:30:44] If and only if the issues in Puerto Rico since my studies are from there, my bar is from there, that's where I then could access that part. Having said that, again, my mindset and my business is on the federal trademark copyright area, not on the employment side. So, I prefer referring those out, even if it's in Puerto Rico.

John Reed [00:31:09] Sure.

Cielo Puccio [00:31:09] It's better for me.

John Reed [00:31:10] Sure. I often ask this question, and I'll ask it of you. What are your greatest hits? You know, you've had success in your practice. Success means different things to different people. Tell us a couple of stories about matters you've handled or people you've represented, not naming names, of which you're particularly proud. The work that you've done that you're particularly proud of.

Cielo Puccio [00:31:31] Well, I really have a client that is very dear to my heart because he become a friend after, and we did an O1B visa, the visa specifically for artists. And he came from Mexico, and we wanted to bring him here to the United States. And he was going to become in the United States, the job opportunity that he had, it was going to be a very big jump to what he was doing. Not only because it was going to be a huge title, but because he was going to be leading a, one of the most prestigious dance company here in the United States and the visa took time.

[00:32:11] Because we were going to have to go through many documents. It was, we have to search through all his life. We needed to really search and really provide this life book to the officer so that when he evaluated everything, he ruled in favor of us. So, the producing time only and the preparation was six to eight months. Even though it was long, again, because of my boutique approach, it was a very satisfying process through me. I got to know him. So, we become friends, and it's something that it's always very nice to have when that client becomes already a friend.

[00:32:49] And then when we submitted, in less than two weeks, we got an approval. So that was also very satisfying that in a very short time, we got that approval, even though the work took so long. And it has been a client that has been with me along the way, since we are already friends, I now take classes with him. Sometimes I go see him. You see? Yeah. So, the relationship evolves. So that one particular client, not only because of the work satisfaction, it has been very satisfying for me because of that area.

[00:33:19] And something that you said, I think it's really important. I know that us attorneys, we measure maybe success of a business in regular business terms, but I think that it's also really important and in this world when you're seeing so much things that the war in Ukraine now in Israel to measure success in some others ways that could be very satisfying to our soul. I think that's something important to consider. And I see that there's many attorneys considering success in other ways. And I applaud that. And I applaud that. And in this case, even though we had the success professionally, I could say that my greatest success was having him now as a friend.

John Reed [00:33:58] Good, good, good. And maybe in the trademark area, something else you've done that you're particularly proud of?

Cielo Puccio [00:34:03] Well, I was really particularly proud to having trademark a brand of a former ballerina and that she had a career after retiring. She had developed all of this and a business in relation to dancing. So, it was really nice to achieve her. We achieved also her trademark registration and also my relationship with her is very pleasurable.

[00:34:27] You see, that's what I like. Not only the work that I'm doing and the work that is related with something that I like, which is dancing, but also that since we have things in common, we kind of understand each other. It's like when you meet someone for the first time, and something clicks, it's like having that feeling with my clients. Now, I'm not going to tell you that there have been clients that are difficult, yeah? Or that, maybe not difficult because I don't like using that word.

John Reed [00:34:53] No, tell me it isn't so.

Cielo Puccio [00:34:57] I mean clients that maybe don't see eye to eye to what you're doing or discrepancies and then you have to part ways. But I like also to concentrate in the positive because we also as attorneys know that they're always those clients.

John Reed [00:35:13] Yeah, I'll leave it at that. I won't say anything more.

[00:35:15] I applaud you for a number of reasons that you've so clearly articulated. You have a focus in terms of what you want your practice to be. You clearly have done your advertising professors proud in that you've concentrated so heavily on your brand, and you understand it, and it's crystallized. You fully promote it.

[00:35:37] But I thank you for sharing how you measure engaged success, that it is that personal relationship. You know, part of what we do on this podcast is we spotlight remarkable attorneys like yourself, not only for what they do but what they get out of the practice. And so, I appreciate you kind of explaining that for us.

Cielo Puccio [00:35:57] I like trying to provide solutions. I have been reached out by people, maybe sports, maybe the fine arts, and again, depending on my experience with them, how our conversations go, it could be that I could take the case.

[00:36:13] If not, I never like saying no. I like to refer out. So, I do have attorneys that I know in different areas, and I always like to refer. I don't like having the client say, you know, say no, I'm sorry, and go away. I also always let them keep the door open if by any chance the referral that I send you doesn't work out or something happened. Well, you can come back to me, and I can see if I could reach out to someone else, et cetera. That's something that I like to do.

John Reed [00:36:41] Sure. It's a care and concern that's part of your ongoing part of your practice.

Cielo Puccio [00:36:45] I think that it's very important also to see the client as a person that's coming to you with a problem.

John Reed [00:36:51] So tell us what's next for you.

Cielo Puccio [00:36:54] Well, I'm going to give you a nugget. Okay. Recently I was helping and working alongside this attorney that she does cultural heritage in space.

[00:37:07] And I wanted to do something art-related, of course. And the artist, and we did reach out to some artists, and we did the subject in the UNGA United Nations Conference on Arts in Space.

John Reed [00:37:21] Oh my goodness.

Cielo Puccio [00:37:22] Oh my goodness. So that is my new rabbit hole that I fell through. So, I am trying now to get my knowledge out there, get more involved in this area. Again, because I want to be the go-to attorney for artists. Specifically, ballet, you know, so they can think of me. And I want to then also cover— not so much cultural heritage; I want to stick to art— but cover art in space.

[00:37:53] So that is also something that I'm going to be adding. I have a good chat on Monday with my mentor in that area, which she is basically the authority in that subject. So that's something new that I'm going to be adding to my practice. I haven't said it and nowhere. But it's something that I'm moving forward my practice to also add again, not leaving out anything, but to also add because there is an abundance of things that are happening in space that we are not aware of, including art, beautiful things of arts that are going out there.

[00:38:26] And when I'm talking also of art in outer space, it's literally the art either being done in outer space or being done here and launched to outer space. Yeah, I encountered an artist that did like something with flowers. And he launched it, and it got all the way to the ISSA until it crumbled. And we have the photographs, and now the photographs went to a gallery, and then they went to auction.

[00:38:53] You know, so there's a lot of things that are happening, so I want to have also that outlet there. I'm already writing some articles to see if it could be published on them.

[00:39:02] So. Something new, you're the only one that knows it.

John Reed [00:39:07] Oh my goodness.

[00:39:07] Okay. All right. Well, Cielomar, Cielo, it has been a pleasure talking with you. I appreciate your energy and your spirit, and you've delivered a masterclass in niche marketing for lawyers. So, thank you for being here today.

Cielo Puccio [00:39:20] Thank you for the opportunity, and it has been a pleasure.

John Reed [00:39:24] To our listeners, if you'd like to learn more about Cielo, visit StickyLawyers.com where we've posted links to her law firm and other sites. Regardless of where you found us, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, et cetera, please take a moment to hit the follow button. That way you'll be sure to get new episodes, and you'll also let us know that you're a fan and we would definitely appreciate that. Until next time, I'm John Reed, and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.