A Career (or Two or Three) in Service: A Government Attorney, ABA Leader, and Emergency Medical Technician

John Reed [00:00:00] Among all the characteristics of being a sticky lawyer is service. That certainly includes providing exceptional client service but also service to the community and public service for the greater good. 

[00:00:17] While many lawyers are philanthropic, sticky lawyers often do more in big ways. They give not only because it feels good, but because they are compelled. It's a personal moral obligation they willingly and satisfyingly fulfill with their time, skills, and resources. 

[00:00:35] Today's guest will give us a glimpse of what it means to be a government lawyer, a different trajectory from the typical law firm path. He'll also discuss his efforts in shaping and evolving the legal profession and how he gets out from behind a desk to literally save lives.

[00:00:51] Christopher Jenison exemplifies what it means to serve. He has spent his entire legal career and arguably his entire adult life in the public sector, and now serves as the headquarters team manager at the Federal Aviation Administration's Employment and Labor Law Division.

[00:01:09] He gives back to the profession and the legal system through his efforts with the American Bar Association. And since college, he has helped the community in his service as an emergency medical technician, an EMT, and apparently, he has figured out the secret for going without sleep. So, Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Chris Jennison [00:01:28] Thank you so much. I'm going to have you as my hype person from now on because that's an excellent intro. 

John Reed [00:01:33] You've earned it. You've earned it. I'm just the scribe here. 

Chris Jennison [00:01:36] Thank you. 

John Reed [00:01:37] You essentially have three avocations: government lawyer, EMT, your role with the ABA, actually four avocations because you're a dad, too. We don't want to short-sell that one. Where does your calling for public service come from? 

Chris Jennison [00:01:53] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the question.

[00:01:56] I grew up in the Washington D.C. Area, in Maryland, just north of D.C. And my parents, so they weren't in the public sector, were always very civically engaged. My parents were presidents of the homeowner’s association and presidents of the neighborhood swim team and on the PTA and all that sort of jazz.

[00:02:15] And I think because of that, they instilled in my sister and I, the need to be involved, the need to not just kind of live in our own worlds. That kind of inspired me to want to do politics or policy in some way. And though I don't do politics currently, that has kind of pushed me to where I am today, through my education, through public administration and law, to where I am now in the federal government.

[00:02:37] As you mentioned, I'm a, an EMT and president of the Bethesda Chevy Chase Rescue Squad, a nonprofit rescue fire department in the D.C. area. And I think that's pushed me into that space as well, to be willing to put out my time and energy to help in a space beyond kind of my own little bubble.

John Reed [00:02:54] So that's the impetus and I get that, and I appreciate the background. What's the reward though? We can have a discussion all day long about nature/nurture or if empathy is part of you naturally. And we'll get into the different things that you do, but what's the reward that you feel?

Chris Jennison [00:03:10] I think there is both the, what you just said, the reward that I feel, which is I do feel like I am able to contribute and give back and help beyond my own bubble in all of the spaces I'm working in. 

[00:03:24] On a practical and reality level too, it helps me in my own mental space. It helps me in my own satisfaction in the work that I'm doing and frankly, it also gives me a good balance on the most basic level. My job as a federal government attorney gives me a great work-life balance. And, so yes, I'm helping in the public space, but I'm also having that balance in my own life too.

John Reed [00:03:49] Let's transition to your legal career. Depending on the source, there are some 36,000 lawyers employed by the federal government. And not surprisingly, more than 9,000 lawyers work in the Justice Department. Now, I'm no math genius, but that means there are 27,000-ish attorneys in other agencies. So how did you end up at the FAA out of all the agencies that are out there? 

Chris Jennison [00:04:14] Dumb luck. I was lucky and I'm lucky to be where I am today. I knew that I wanted to be in some kind of public space coming out of law school. I was applying very broadly to a whole range of public sector spaces, not so much nonprofits, but a couple nonprofits or advocacy organizations, but mostly governmental organizations, state attorney general's offices, DA's offices, although I didn't have a ton of criminal background, criminal law experience, not criminal background to be clear. And then federal government agencies. 

[00:04:45] There's a resource which I preach to law students I talk to now, which was my guiding resource my 3L fall year. It's called the Arizona Public Interest Handbook. It's put together, I think it used to be law professors that put it together, and I think it's been picked up by like a Westlaw or Lexus-type organization to sponsor it now. But what they do is maintain all deadlines and application requirements for public sector jobs, both for internships and for post-law school employment. And I used that. I printed it out in the Syracuse Law Library and took out any that I absolutely didn't want to apply to. And otherwise worked through it basically every weekend or every time I had some free time. And that was really like my source. I didn't want to leave anything on the table. And luckily, out of that, I got a couple of interviews and one of those was with the Department of Transportation for their honors program. And I did the honors program for a year. Coming out of that, I ended up over at the Federal Aviation Administration. And that's where I've been since. 

[00:05:43] And so that's the shorthand of my path here. But it is, it is dumb luck. I've been lucky. Some work along the way, but dumb luck to get where I am and to be as lucky as I have been. 

John Reed [00:05:53] Let's start now with what your role is there. And then I want to go back a little bit and talk about your trajectory, your career path there. 

Chris Jennison [00:06:02] Sure. We have 30 to 40 attorneys at any time that do employment and labor law for the Federal Aviation Administration. I oversee our headquarters team, so we've got six attorneys currently on our headquarters team.

[00:06:14] And basically, we handle any kind of employment law situation that comes up really in the Mid-Atlantic, but Pennsylvania, down through South Carolina, and out west a little bit as well. We have a collaborative environment and so I work with our other teams. Sometimes our team will pick up cases for other teams throughout the country, so we're not confined to that geography, but that's predominantly where our workload comes from.

[00:06:36] And what that means is we're working on advising on reasonable accommodations for individuals with disabilities and how to accommodate those employees. We're working on reasonable suspicion testing for employees who are within a testing-designated position. Think an air traffic controller can't be on controlled substances, obviously.

[00:06:54] And so advising on when and how we can do testing on employees. We work on adverse actions, so disciplinary matters. An employee has some kind of conduct behavior. Maybe they didn't follow instructions or they're having some kind of negligent work performance. So, we advise management on how to go about addressing the disciplinary issues. 

[00:07:13] Really our clients are managers. Our client is the FAA, is the agency. But managers are an extension of the agency. And so, I can have a client call me who's in charge of a particular region. I can have a client call me who's the head of a particular airport. And we have a pretty broad gamut of who our clients might be. And then that's the advice. I like the advice side better because we get to do a little bit more one-on-one discussion with the clients. 

[00:07:39] We also do a lot of litigation as well. So, our team handles litigation at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Think discrimination cases against the FAA. Litigation at the Merit Systems Protection Board. Federal employees have a heightened property interest in their job, and so if we're proposing one of those disciplinary actions of something like a 14-day suspension or more, or a demotion or removal, those employees can challenge that to the Merit Systems Protection Board. So, we'll litigate those. We also assist the Department of Justice in any kind of federal litigation involving the FAA as well. So, we have a pretty broad range of things we touch each day. 

John Reed [00:08:14] There's a, as you say, an advice component to that, and regulatory compliance and things like that. And then in the adversarial disputes, litigation, your opposing counsel could be a law firm. It could be another federal agency. It could be maybe a union representative. Is that a fair assessment? 

Chris Jennison [00:08:33] Yeah. It can really be anyone. And what's really unique, especially in the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission where we have the bulk of our litigation, is you don't have to be a lawyer to be an opposing counsel too.

[00:08:44] And so we will have former EEO specialists who used to be with the federal government. We have a lot of pro se complainants who are representing themselves. So, we have a pretty wide range of who we might be litigating against too. 

John Reed [00:08:56] Is there a dividing line between the litigation you and your fellow FAA attorneys handle and matters where the Justice Department or the Labor Department might step in? 

Chris Jennison [00:09:08] Typically that line is going to be whether something is still in the administrative process or whether it has exhausted that administrative process. So, what that means, and I certainly am not an administrative law expert. I never took admin law. I wish I had, so I can understand what I do better. 

John Reed [00:09:23] Chris, between the two of us, you're the expert. Go for it. 

Chris Jennison [00:09:26] Okay. Sounds good. So, the administrative process... typically what we're dealing with is having exhausted that EEOC litigation first, that MSPB litigation first, and then sometimes there's an appeal also within those forums.

[00:09:40] So in an EEOC discrimination case, an employee files their case, we litigate it, say we win it, either through a hearing or through a motion for summary judgment. They can then appeal it to the EEOC's appellate body, the Office of Federal Operations. If we win again on the appeal, then they've exhausted their administrative process and then they can file that in federal court.

[00:10:01] And at that point, it's really kind of divested from our team and living with the Department of Justice. At the same time, we've litigated that case pretty extensively up to that point. And so, we're kind of the experts, and go hand in hand. Yes, we're the clients of the Department of Justice, but we're really kind of co-counsel light with them too, depending on which attorney we're working with from the Department of Justice as well. 

John Reed [00:10:22] When it goes from an administrative forum to a courthouse, that's when either you step aside, or you partner as co-counsel with Justice. 

Chris Jennison [00:10:30] Yeah. Typically, that's the kind of dividing line. 

John Reed [00:10:33] Of course, I never ask any guests to name names, but what are some of your greatest hits, matters that you've handled that you're particularly proud of? 

Chris Jennison [00:10:41] I think the coolest thing to do, and it sounds cliched and it kind of is. But the coolest thing to do is to be able to settle a complex matter where we're going to have some serious risk as an agency before we get into hearing. There was one particular case, and this is totally in the weeds, but there was one particular case where we just didn't have case law to guide where we were going.

[00:11:05] Title VII is the primary anti-discrimination statute, and in Title VII, there is language about retaliation, and it deals with either opposing or participating in the Title VII discrimination process. If you're participating in filing a complaint, it's pretty clear that you have had prior EU activity. If you're a colleague of somebody who is being discriminated against, and you are saying, “Hey, this isn't right,” and you're filing a complaint yourself, or you're raising it, it's fairly clear that you have had some priority activity because you've opposed that discrimination. We have a situation where a manager had been accused of discrimination, didn't want to have that case go to hearing, was interested in settling the hearing, and then, later on, filed a case saying that she had had previous EEO activity.

[00:11:55] And so the premise there is that her role as a manager in saying she either wanted to litigate or settle a case out is itself participation in the EEO process. And frankly, we couldn't find case law anywhere either in the EEOC case law or in any kind of analogous federal courts. And so, we really had no idea what we were getting into with that.

[00:12:16] And we ended up settling it in part because you could see a situation where if a manager having been accused of an EEO issue previously is then allowed to say that going forward they have had previous EEO activity, that's going to open up a can of worms potentially where every manager who has had any EU activity, any accusations against them, is then protected going forward.

[00:12:39] So that's very in the weeds, but it's an interesting situation. It shows kind of the policy side of things, trying to grapple with what the outcome might be or what the unintended consequences might be of litigating or settling a case out.

John Reed [00:12:54] Thank you for that story because the people who listen to this podcast, we've got a combination of lawyers and non-lawyers and one of the things that I enjoy immensely about these conversations is number one, I get to be a legal geek, right? I get to use my legal experience and practice in a bunch of areas that I have absolutely no experience in. But also, I think it's shedding light for the lay folk out there about the nuances of the law. And I think, boy, if there's ever an area that people don't understand it's administrative law. And then, throw in legal protections that you wouldn't even have contemplated, like exactly what you're talking about. 

Chris Jennison [00:13:30] It can very much turn into a tangled web very quickly. And then throw in our clients, again, are managers. Most managers or a lot of managers will also have federal government management insurance, malpractice insurance, essentially. Not as a lawyer, but malpractice insurance to protect them as a manager. 

John Reed [00:13:51] Professional liability. 

Chris Jennison [00:13:53] Professional liability. Exactly. And that carries with it some legal protection as well. And so, throw in getting a third-party professional liability attorney on behalf of a manager, also into the mix. And a lot of times a manager who may or may not have been through this process before is just frazzled. And so, they want to make sure they're covering their own backs as well in the process. So, it can very, very quickly turn into a tangled web. 

John Reed [00:14:16] Look, we all watch television. We read books, and we understand that when you start at a law firm as a new associate there's development. You have to earn your stripes before you can do more things, whether it's handle a large transaction or go to court or whatever.

[00:14:32] How does a new attorney develop within a federal agency? You mentioned the honors program and I think there were some rotations involved. Talk to us about those early days and your development as a new attorney. 

Chris Jennison [00:14:46] I can't praise the DOT Honors program enough. Yes, any honors program, but especially the DOT Honors program. The program has changed slightly since I was involved in it, but what you're looking at now is a two-year program. At the time, it was a one to two-year program, and you're rotating around for four month rotations.

[00:15:05] So, I'm fresh out of law school, and I had done plenty of internships and externships. But I didn't know what I was doing as a brand new lawyer. And so, I did a rotation first with the Federal Aviation Administration in their enforcement division. And I was getting to help on emergency orders of revocation where pilots or carriers are having some kind of safety, security risk, and we're working towards a longer process. But we're doing an immediate pause on their authority to operate. And I was getting to work on that as a brand-new lawyer. 

[00:15:37] I did a rotation at the Pipeline and Hazardous Material Safety Administration (PHMSA), where I was getting to work on federal preemption over really state and municipal entities trying to assert their authority to deal with hazardous material, which was very in the weeds and very much something that I had absolutely no background or knowledge to work on, but it gave me some good experience. 

[00:15:58] And then my third rotation was in the Office of Aviation Enforcement over at DOT, which really deals with anything kind of consumer-related for you or I as a member of the traveling public. Baggage issues, tarmac delays, discrimination in air travel, service animals, anything like that, that office deals with. 

[00:16:18] Getting to go through those three rotations, what was phenomenal for me was I got to see very different office styles going from an individual workspace where people keep their doors closed a lot to a much more collaborative workspace. And to get to see what I wanted in my job location. 

[00:16:36] The nice thing is, if you go to a rotation like that for four months and it's not your cup of tea, you're there for four months and then you get to move on. And you've learned from that. 

[00:16:45] What's unique about DOT compared to other departmental honors programs, they're all structured differently for the most part. Some department might assign you to a place for two years for your honors program, or maybe you get two rotations over the course of two years, and they're assigned as well. At DOT, what they do is they have a list of open placements for the upcoming rotation, and they put you in a conference room with your other honors attorneys and you negotiate who's going where. And so, you're getting a little bit of negotiation experience in the mix too. And there's barter and trading between the honors attorneys.

[00:17:17] My class had a whole point system worked out as to if you got your top choice, the first go-round, you got low points, and so on. And it was this whole matrix we had worked out. But you're getting to work and getting to frankly know your other honors attorneys, too, because of the ability to negotiate with them. So that's unique. I've not heard of another department that does something like that. 

[00:17:38] But regardless, any of the honors programs at any of the departments will give you quick exposure, some mentorship, some additional training along the way that you may or may not get as an entry-level federal government attorney in another sense. 

[00:17:53] There aren't a whole lot of other federal government on-ramps for new attorneys. You typically have to be out of law school, be barred somewhere, and maybe have a year or two of experience to typically apply for federal legal jobs other than through an honors program.

John Reed [00:18:09] Do you have to form alliances and vote people off the island? I mean, how'd you fare in all this? 

Chris Jennison [00:18:15] Basically, no. In reality, I fared with having some great friends coming out of the program with me. I actually could not make my first negotiation. I was on a trip with my wife and her family that we had scheduled far in advance before the first negotiation was set to happen, and so I couldn't participate. So, I kind of threw my request in with blind faith that my new colleagues would help me out.

[00:18:40] And they did. They put me in the FAA enforcement office, which was a fantastic first rotation to be in and one that I wanted to go to. And then, of course, in later rotations, you take a hit a little bit because you got that top ranking that first go-round.

John Reed [00:18:53] My impression is there are a lot of attorneys, whether they take advantage of an honors program or rotations or having government experience on their resumes. They use that and then they go to the private sector. Are you unusual in that at this point in your career, you're still employed as a government lawyer? 

Chris Jennison [00:19:15] That's a fair question and an interesting perspective, and I think it's an accurate one. I don't know off the top of my head, but I think out of my class of honors attorneys of, it was 10 of us, only I think maybe three of us are still at the department. Yeah, some have gone elsewhere. A lot have gone to private sector. Some have gone to other public sector jobs. 

[00:19:36] My closest friend from the program is now over at the Virginia Department of Emergency Management. He was a firefighter. We had that in common. He was a career firefighter before going to law school, and so he wanted to kind of parlay that as well.

[00:19:47] So people have gone to different places. It's interesting. I don't know that I, when I started at the FAA in 2017, thought that I would be where I am in 2023, that I would still be at the FAA. I have certainly kept my eyes open and looked at other opportunities along the way. 

[00:20:03] So for me personally, I love my job. I like where I am. I really like my team. I really like my management, and I like the work we do. And so, every opportunity that has come along the way, while keeping my eyes open for those other opportunities, I do a eyes-wide-open analysis of what makes the most sense for me to stay or go.

[00:20:22] And I think it speaks volumes about my work environment and the work I get to do and the trust I'm given by my management that I stay where I am despite those other opportunities that have come along along the way. A lot of people do absolutely go to the government for a while and then parlay that into private practice.

[00:20:39] I think it's a little bit tougher in the area of law that I am in. In federal sector employment law, it's a very niche area of employment law. While I certainly think that my skill set is absolutely transferable, and I can make that argument, I don't know that a law firm that does employment law outside of federal sector employment law, which again, is a very small subset. I don't know that they would see it quite the same way. 

[00:21:00] I haven't done benefits work, for example, which is a big area of private practice employment law. If I was over in the aviation enforcement or regulatory workspace, I think I could parlay that probably a little bit easier into private practice in some kind of transportation or regulatory type work. I also don't have a lot of interest in doing that right now. The nice thing about the FAA is people can move around, can get different experiences, but I like what I'm doing. 

[00:21:28] I like what I'm doing in employment law. It's fun. Every day is unique and every day is interesting, and I've gotten increasing responsibility and trust with it along the way. So, there's a lot for me to stay where I am.

[00:21:39] I do think, though, generally a lot of people only come to the government for a couple years, whether it's as an entry-level attorney or they come in and do a stint in mid-career.

[00:21:48] It really is only a couple years. Right now, I've got a pretty good team. We're pretty stable. We don't have much turnover. But you certainly see a lot of turnover in the government overall as well. 

John Reed [00:21:58] Let's stay law-adjacent for a moment. You've been and remain quite active with the American Bar Association. Is that, and I think I know the answer, but is that another extension of your commitment to public service? 

Chris Jennison [00:22:11] Yeah, I think so. I mean, I have had the question posed to me before of, a lot of people go and participate in bar associations to build their book of business. I don't have to build my book of business because my clients are handed to me. Where's the value to me? 

[00:22:24] And to me, I get really two big things from the American Bar Association. Three things. One is I get to have great connections with other young lawyers across the country. Some of my best friends come from the American Bar Association. Actually, my wife and I met through the ABA as well. But we have a group chat that my wife and I are both on with young lawyers who are in vastly different settings across the country, and we talk every day. 

[00:22:50] You have a healthcare attorney in Baton Rouge, a municipal attorney now prosecutor in rural Ohio, a tax manager in Chicago, an employment partner at a boutique firm in Portland, a law professor in South Dakota. I'm probably missing somebody. But you just get to meet people who are in vastly different settings but are still confronting kind of the same things in their lives right now. Right? We're all growing as professionals in similar-ish times of practice and trying to figure out our place. So that is one thing that I've gotten from the ABA. I've gotten comradery outside of the workplace, comradery as young lawyers. 

[00:23:25] The other thing I've gotten from the ABA, more towards the public sector space, is I get to have an impact. The ABA has many practice area entities, and I'm involved in those, but it is the voice of the American legal profession. There's many voices of the American legal profession, but it's the largest umbrella of the American legal profession. The ABA has a House of Delegates, which is their policy-making body. And when the House of Delegates speaks, the ABA is speaking and saying, “Hey, this policy should be enacted by Congress; this practice should be enacted by law practices. We are standing for the rights of XX group.” And so being a part of that is certainly empowering and something that I can't get as an individual, whether I was in government practice or in private practice. 

[00:24:16] I'm a policy wonk and so I've gotten to write some policies through the House of Delegates and see their impact. When I was a law student, I was part of a team that put together a resolution on the Uniform Bar Exam, usher that through the House of Delegates, and get the ABA to adopt a policy encouraging states to adopt the Uniform Bar Exam. And this was in 2016. At that point, there were 14 states that are UBE states. I think now it's in the upper thirties. The ABA alone is not the determinative factor that pushed it there, but it's a pretty big factor that pushed states to consider it too. So, seeing that impact is huge. 

John Reed [00:24:53] The other area where you've participated with the ABA is with paralegals. We don't often think about ABA and paralegals. You could say ABA and lawyers, certainly ABA and law students, but the paraprofessionals that work in the law are extremely important. So maybe you could tell us about your work with paralegals. 

Chris Jennison [00:25:12] Yeah, absolutely. I had the fortune of serving as the law student on the ABAs' Board of Governors when I was in my third year of law school. As part of that role, I was the Board of Governors’ liaison to what's called the Standing Committee on Paralegals. The Standing Committee has kind of two subsidiary bodies in it, but they are the group that works on paralegal policy for the ABA advocating for effective utilization of paralegals. But then they also do voluntary accreditation of paralegal programs as well. Unlike for law schools, where typically you have to have ABA accreditation of a law school, it's a voluntary approval process for paralegal programs.

[00:25:54] I didn't realize until fairly far along in my involvement in the ABA, when I got to go out to speak to the Delaware Paralegal Association, that many states and municipal governments require you to actually have graduated from an ABA-approved paralegal program. And I think that's pretty cool to see that stamp of approval really carries something with it such that it's a requirement in many places too. My thought had always been, it was this voluntary approval. And so, you know, it's great to have an extra credential, but it's not a requirement. But seeing that many employers actually view it as a requirement, I think speaks to the power there as well. 

[00:26:30] So the standing committee reviews and vets requirements of education for those paralegal programs to make sure that they're meeting a certain mark or a certain quality. And I got to travel to a number of paralegal programs, got to check them out and meet incredible paralegals across the country through that. 

John Reed [00:26:45] You and I also share the experience of having participated in the ABA Law Student Division. I'm sure I was not like you. I was in law school kind of wondering what's going on here, and it was a way to understand the practice and the profession, but also to develop those very important relationships and find the others that you're going through the war with. And even though they may not be at your school, they're at others, and it could be, it could be really so valuable. 

Chris Jennison [00:27:11] Yeah. There's some incredible camaraderie there for sure.

John Reed [00:27:14] Okay. Let's get to your EMT career. 

Chris Jennison [00:27:18] Okay. 

John Reed [00:27:19] So what is the superhero origin story there, Chris? 

Chris Jennison [00:27:23] Yeah, you know, I had wanted to do fire EMS since I was a kid. My county had a high school EMT program where you went for half a day over to the fire academy, got to get your EMT and fire credential. And I was not able to do that. And I think that kind of stuck with me that I couldn't do that, and I thought it was kind of cool. You could get out of school and go play with fire and EMS stuff for half a day. Sounded pretty, pretty dang cool to me, and I couldn't make that work.

[00:27:50] So I went up to Syracuse for undergrad in upstate New York and the first week of school, a guy who I'd become friends with, Andrew Bisset, had been a firefighter back home in high school. And he said, “Hey, I'm going to this open house for this thing called SUA - Syracuse University Ambulance. You wanna come?” And I didn't have anything going on, so I said, “Yeah, I'll go. That sounds kind of cool.” Went to the open house, applied, got accepted, and we were both hooked. 

[00:28:16] The ambulance at Syracuse University had two ambulances, some non-emergency medical transport vans as well, a supervisor's SUV, and then what's called a mass casualty trailer for a large-scale incident as well. And I started out getting my EMT freshman year. It was a great way to get six credits. I wish I had actually done better because I wish I could have gotten six credits of “” instead of six credits of “B” for what should have been something I should get an “A” in.

[00:28:46] So I got that my freshman year. I would ride pretty much once a week at the ambulance and was hooked. I'd ride whenever I could extra, but ride pretty much once a week. Met some of my best friends to this day through the ambulance. And by the end of my sophomore year, I had moved up through the ranks of SUA and was named a field supervisor for my junior and senior year, along with two other guys, Andrew being one of them.

[00:29:11] What that meant is one of the four of us was on duty pretty much every night and weekends. We had a daytime paid university employee who was our day supervisor. And then one of us was on from 5:00 PM to 8:00 AM, Monday to Friday, and then all weekends. I went from riding five or 10 hours a week to riding sometimes 40, 50 hours a week at the ambulance.

[00:29:33] And that doesn't mean that you can't do other things when you're not on a call, you absolutely can. You can sleep, you can do work, you can work out, you can watch a movie. And so, you're not just only responding to calls exclusively for 50 hours a week. 

[00:29:46] Sometimes there were some pretty crazy shifts back then, but you can do a lot else and so that gave me some incredible responsibility, excitement. I got to drive the supervisor's SUV, responding all around campus playing EMT. And I say that jokingly, we did play EMT, but we were also serious EMTs too. So it was, it was a cool experience, especially for a 20 and 21-year-old, to have that kind of responsibility, leadership, and authority.

[00:30:12] I've kept my EMT certifications up since then. I've been a part of two other departments now. One, when I was in grad school outside of Philadelphia — Mount Laurel EMS. And then one that I'm still part of that I joined when I graduated from law school, Chevy Chase Rescue Squad that I mentioned earlier, just outside of D.C. in the Bethesda-Chevy Chase region.

[00:30:33] I'm now the president of that organization. I keep my EMT certifications up. I don't ride much now with two little kids. But I hope to start riding again soon as the kids get older too. It's a welcome break from my day job, too, and it gives me that kind of direct client satisfaction that sometimes I can't have in my day job with legal work too.

[00:30:53] People who call 911 are having the worst day they've experienced in a long time. Even if it's going to be a longer process to resolve their medical concern or whatever, you're the first faces that are walking the door to help them resolve the situation that led them to call 911. And so, getting that kind of exposure to being that kind of helper to people is incredible. 

John Reed [00:31:13] There's a lot to unpack here. So, I don't know what you looked or sounded like as a young college student, but what did people, people you treated, ER docs and nurses, whoever, think when this kid rolls up in the ambulance and starts assessing or proclaiming what the situation is to everybody there. 

Chris Jennison [00:31:32] You learn very quickly to project a sense of authority, whether you're the frontline EMT or the supervisor on scene when you're a kid. We trained with seriousness so that we could project that authority and project that quality of care that we were giving. But yeah, you walk up, and you're there as an 18-year-old, as a fresh EMT, and I think, among students, a lot of our patients were students of the university. They don't care because you're there in uniform. You're there with an ambulance. You look legit, and you are legit. And so, they don't care. 

[00:32:04] I think some of the older patients that we'd have, people coming out of campus or a professor or staff, they would question sometimes, but we also had a great reputation around the campus as well. Syracuse University Ambulance started in 1973, I think it was. And so, this had been around for some time and had been always at the forefront of improving quality of care, too. And we had a great reputation with the city ambulance as well. Yes, you're an 18-year-old or a 20-year-old showing up on the scene of a call. Maybe we need a paramedic who has higher level skills as well on scene, so the city ambulance will show up.

[00:32:39] But they know that for the most part, our folks knew how to set them up for success and work with them. So, they didn't so much worry about rolling up on a scene where SUA is there either. So, it's a mixed bag, but I think the key there was being able to project authority and knowledge. And that's why we train so hard too. 

John Reed [00:32:58] One of the patterns I'm seeing here with what you've described — the honors program at the DOT. ABA Law Student Division. Certainly, the SUA. You consciously, or otherwise, put yourself in situations to build confidence at a level that most people, maybe one of those things would be sufficient. Was that purposeful? Was that by design, or again, as you say, kind of happy accidents?

Chris Jennison [00:33:31] I recently came across the concept of, I think it was called the three whys. It's almost approaching “why” as an onion and pulling back the layers of why. I don't know that I've gotten to the why behind the why behind the why of where I put myself in those situations. I don't know that it's been intentional, but I've always been trying to not move to the next level, but trying to show up and do the best I can. And that has set me up for success at the next level too. 

[00:33:57] As an entry-level EMT at SUA, I wanted to learn how to be an EMT and learn how to be able to provide good care. And then I wanted to learn how to be a good ambulance driver. And then I wanted to learn how to be a good trainer of those things. And that's what set me up when there was an opportunity to be a field supervisor, to be a field supervisor. 

[00:34:18] As an attorney at the FAA, I wanted to make sure that I was learning everything I could about how to do employment law, how to argue, advise, write the best way I could. And that has set me up for progressive promotions to the point where when there was an opening for team manager, I was set up for success. And I don't know that I wanted to be a team manager. It certainly is a different skill set that law school does not prepare you for in managing folks. But I wanted to make sure that if there was an opportunity that came along, whether it's being a team manager, going to a different agency, doing something entirely different, that sounded like something I wanted to pursue, that I could pursue it, that I could be set up for that. To be able to be equipped to take advantage of something if an opportunity arises. 

John Reed [00:35:04] Rather than chalk it up as a great experience and leave it behind, you did and you still do, as you explained, stay active in your EMT work. How did that work as a new lawyer? 

Chris Jennison [00:35:17] It was tough. It was tough. I think the average volunteer time that I've heard before for a volunteer EMT in the United States is four years. It's regardless of where you're volunteering, regardless of what setting you're in, it's a demand. It's a demand on you. It's a demand on your day. It's a demand on your family. That demand was there as I was a new attorney, which is also itself a huge demand. 

[00:35:41] I mentioned a friend of mine from the honors program who's now over at the Virginia Department of Emergency Medicine. His name is Dylan Taylor. And Dylan was a career firefighter and kind of had the whole mindset that I have had. I was an honors attorney rotating around and enjoying what I was doing, but also feeling like there was some other itch out there too, and not knowing what that was. And Dylan said, “Well, why don't you think about volunteering somewhere as an EMT? I don't know what that looks like in the D.C. area, but why don't you think about that?” 

[00:36:10] So I looked around, and the department that's closest to where I live wanted us there by, I think 5:30 PM, and there was no way I could get from downtown D.C. to the department by 5:30 PM when I was leaving at five. So, I asked around a little bit more, looked around a little bit more, and found BCC Rescue, which the shift started at 7:00 PM and I could make that work. I was on Thursday night crew. 

[00:36:35] And so for five out of every six weeks, I would ride on Thursday night, be on from 7:00 PM to 7:00 AM at one of the two stations we were staffing at the time, and from seven to 11:00 PM of that shift, it was not our time, it was, it was station time. So training, dinner with a crew, cooking with a crew, eating with a crew, call time, station cleanup, chores around the station, whatnot. After 11, it was our own time other than if we were on calls. So, we could do what we did as a college EMT. Sleep, watch a movie, workout, do work. And folks kind of disperse at that time and do their own thing. 

[00:37:13] I was going downtown at the time. It was pre-pandemic, and so the flexibilities were much less. So I had to report into the office, and so there were days when I was pretty tired. I'd save up my Starbucks rewards to get a coffee with extra shots on those Fridays that were particularly tiresome. 

[00:37:32] The reality in what we talk about now at BC Rescue when we're talking to new volunteers, people are surprised that we are volunteers. They say that's a thing still in this day and age? And everybody says, “Yeah, I am a lawyer, a banker, a researcher, a program manager in my day job. And then I do this, too, as a volunteer. And if you talk to anybody there or talk to anybody who's in a volunteer firefighter, EMT.” They'll say the same thing. That yes, it is a demand, and it's something you have to balance and something that you have to keep sanity in. But it also gives you incredible personal return, too, because you're able to help so many people. And frankly, kind of like the ABA, yes, I'm able to help people, but I'm also making some incredible connections, friends, and family there too, along the way.

John Reed [00:38:19] Chris, I've really enjoyed talking with you. This has been an education for me about so many areas. Please allow me to thank you for your first responder service. 

Chris Jennison [00:38:28] Thank you. 

John Reed [00:38:29] Second, let me thank you for being vigilant at the FAA. I feel much better about flying, knowing you're doing what you're doing. Third, thank you for living every child's dream of going from Tonka toys and playing firefighter to actually riding around in SUVs and helping out and saving lives, I'm sure.

[00:38:48] And of course, thanks most of all for being here today. I really appreciate it. 

Chris Jennison [00:38:52] Absolutely. And now, John, you just reminded me of something that I do have to share. Because you mentioned Tonka trucks, my two-and-a-half-year-old son Jack is obsessed with ambulances, fire trucks, calls them WeeWoos. Regardless what it is.

John Reed [00:39:07] It was the WooWoo at our house! 

Chris Jennison [00:39:08] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 

John Reed [00:39:08] It was the WooWoo at our house! We are totally simpatico. 

Chris Jennison [00:39:12] Yep. Yep. So, I'm at a training in downtown Silver Spring, which is about 20, 25 minutes down the road from our house and our daycare, which are nearby. And I get a call at the training saying that our son has had a choking incident. And my wife was traveling at the time, so she's calling me trying to figure out what's going on. I'm trying to figure out what's going on. 

[00:39:34] I raced out of my training and up this 25-minute drive in maybe 10 minutes to the daycare. Meanwhile, I'm calling over to the rescue squad where I volunteer at and am president at to the daycare supervisor, asking if he has any intel and what's going on by looking at the computer system.

[00:39:50] He says, “Yeah, they didn't send all the units. It wasn't the most serious response.” So, it's not a worst-case scenario. I'm putting in an alert on the system so the crew can't leave without talking to you first. So, volunteering has its advantages.

[00:40:02] I get there though, and get into the classroom with my son, and he's a little out of it. You know, he's been through a traumatic experience of choking on, he shoved too many, I think, goldfish in his mouth. He's clutching his teacher, and I'm talking to the career EMTs that are on site, and they say I would recommend to him getting checked out. And I agree with them. 

[00:40:21] So we load him up in the ambulance. The second he sits down in the ambulance in what's called the captain's chair, that kind of spinning chair in the back by the stretcher, all smiles. Complete switch from the clutching and the tears to all smiles and laughs. And I was like. Dang you, kid. You can go to the ambulance anytime you want to at the station that I volunteer at anytime, anytime. You did not have to go through a choking incident just to get your joy ride in the ambulance, you know? So, I had to share that because it's the real-life Tonka truck WeeWoo. You know? 

John Reed [00:40:56] Are you starting to look for the high schools with the EMT certification programs for him? 

Chris Jennison [00:41:00] I take him and my daughter, who's four and a half, by the rescue squad a fair amount, and I say, “You know, we have a junior member program that starts at 16.” We've had plenty of people who their kids come along and ride with them. I would love that. I'm not going to force them, but I would love that. We’ve got a little time till then. 

John Reed [00:41:14] Fantastic. Well, as I said when we started, that's your fourth job, being a parent.

Chris Jennison [00:41:18] Exactly. Exactly. 

John Reed [00:41:19] Chris, really, truly, I've enjoyed this. I enjoy you. I appreciate you and again, thank you for being here today. 

Chris Jennison [00:41:26] Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. It's great meeting and chatting with you guys. 

John Reed [00:41:29] Listeners, if you'd like to learn more about Chris, please visit stickylawyers.com. We've posted links about him and the many, many groups and activities he's involved in, and which he mentioned. 

[00:41:41] Right now, you may be taking in the episode on our website or Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, and we thank you for that.

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[00:42:04] But until next time, I'm John Reed and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.

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