From Wyoming to the Hague: Becoming an International Human Rights Lawyer

John Reed [00:00:00] If you're listening to this podcast, chances are that you've never been a victim of a war crime. You probably don't have any family subjected to state-sponsored brutality. Your friends haven't been jailed, deported, tortured, or killed for voicing an opinion. Nor is it likely that you've been accused of perpetrating or orchestrating such crimes and injustices.

[00:00:22] We may see reports of atrocities and indictments in the news, but they do not happen to people like us. These things happen in the world, but not our worlds. For today's guest, however, this is her world.

[00:00:35] Haydee Dijkstal is a barrister — a lawyer — practicing international criminal law and international human rights law, and head of international law at 33 Bedford Row Chambers, a London-based firm. And she is formidable.

[00:00:49] Haydee's list of representative cases isn't just notable; it's historic. Her clients range from families to vast populations as well as state officials, military leaders, and governments. While we don't have enough time today to discuss that list or all the impact and implications, we can at least get a glimpse into Haydee's practice and background. It is my privilege to talk with her today. 

[00:01:12] Haydee, welcome. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:01:13] Well, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

John Reed [00:01:16] Let's say you're on a plane, which you frequently are. Another passenger, a stranger, sits down next to you, you exchange pleasantries, and then they ask you, what do you do? What do you tell them? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:01:29] Well, usually I don't like to talk too much about what I do. So, oftentimes I just say lawyer, and that usually ends the conversation. 

John Reed [00:01:37] By the way, you and I have had the chance to talk before, and you're lovely, but you're understated, which is somewhat unusual for what you do. And I've seen videos of you. I'm not going to say there's Jekyll and Hyde. But you do have your professional persona, and then there's this very much more casual one, which I appreciate and thank you for. But this idea of not sharing what you do, is that humility, or is that strategic? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:02:00] It's probably a little bit of both, I think. Speaking about myself is often something that I find quite difficult. A lot of the work that I do is to speak on behalf of my clients or speak about certain legal issues. So that's what I have a lot of practice with and what I feel comfortable doing, speaking on behalf of people and being, I suppose, their mouthpiece before certain institutions and courts. But when it comes to talking about me, it's a bit more difficult. And I think there's also the issue of confidentiality as well. So, I don't want to get into too much of a conversation that would lead into speaking about, you know, just a casual conversation on a plane that I haven't thought about beforehand of, of speaking about any clients. Of course, I can casually mention that I do human rights law, but I tend to not want to talk about it too much more from there. 

John Reed [00:02:47] I'd like to lay some groundwork. Where did you grow up? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:02:50] So, I grew up in Wyoming, we had a bit of an international background. My father's Dutch, my mother's Puerto Rican. So, always traveling and seeing family members in different countries, in different areas. It was very interesting to grow up in Wyoming. It's a beautiful place, but it also had that international connection as well. 

John Reed [00:03:07] When did you first think about the law as a career? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:03:12] I would say that deciding to pursue practicing law was something that came maybe a little bit later. I'd always, with the international background that I mentioned before, I'd always had an interest in international relations. That was what I studied for my undergrad degree. But then I think I was trying to figure out how I wanted to engage in international issues as a profession, and the law came up as the way that I'd like to do that. Funnily as well, I think international criminal law was also a merging of different interests as well.

[00:03:47] I knew that I liked international issues. I knew that I liked the law and then when I was in law school, I also interned for a public defender's office and found that to be fascinating as well. So, it all seemed to kind of align together, as the way that I ended up launching or pursuing my international career to begin with.

John Reed [00:04:06] And I want to be careful here. Wyoming is a beautiful place. It is not backwater by any means, but I don't think of it as the hub of an international legal career training ground. So, you went to the University of Wyoming Law School. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:04:22] That's right. 

John Reed [00:04:22] Certainly internships and clerkships and things like that. But how else did you think about fashioning your curriculum, your studies, to get you to where you wanted to go? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:04:34] Well, I'd say at the time that I went to law school at the University of Wyoming, they had a few courses in international law, but not many. I've seen since that they've added quite a bit in a clinic and I've, I think back that I'm jealous that those students now have that experience and wonderful to see that they're growing. 

John Reed [00:04:50] And was that because of you, notable alumni? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:04:52] No. Goodness, not. I don't. I think there's people that are doing hard work, too, to build that program that are there. I'm so glad to see it growing that way, but I think when I was there, I very much knew that this was the path that I wanted to go on, international law in some way.

[00:05:08] And so there was an element of, in addition to the few courses that were available, I did need to kind of chase opportunities and get involved in any associations or groups or just find ways to have exposure any way that I could. So having that motivation to kind of find it myself. So, whether that's internships or getting involved in different groups or networking, there was a lot that I had to do in order to kind of bridge that gap and reach out to the international scene, I suppose, in law.

[00:05:39] That also included after I graduated with my law degree, I really felt as though it was necessary for me to go and get an LLM in international law, which I did at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. I did feel as though I needed to take that year of the LLM program to just completely immerse myself in different international law courses and then also benefit from all the opportunities that are available in Washington D.C. to get involved with different NGOs and international issues being discussed and worked on there. 

John Reed [00:06:14] How did you make the jump from Washington to London? Talk about that journey. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:06:19] Oh gosh. Well, I think that road was almost a decade to get to London, with a long stop in the Hague.

[00:06:27] So just to kind of start from there, after my LLM I got my first position in the Hague on the defense team for Charles Taylor, and that was the Special Court for Sierra Leone. And I very much just worked my way up. Kind of the bottom ranks all the way up, starting with an internship like so many people do these days, and then getting your first real position as a lawyer on the team and kind of growing from there.

[00:06:53] So I spent about seven or eight years living in the Hague, first working at the Special Court for Sierra Leone, then moving to the International Criminal Court where I have actually been practicing since, even if I'm not physically located in the Hague, working case to case on different matters that come up.

[00:07:13] And that includes issues where I'm on defense teams representing accused persons before the tribunals or a lot of what I do these days is representing victims of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and other serious international crimes. But then also, I'm representing the interests of governments before these tribunals because there is that issue of state cooperation and complementarity that comes into these trials. So, it's been very interesting to have the opportunity to represent so many different parties and from different positions. 

[00:07:44] I spent about seven, eight years doing that as a U.S. lawyer in the Hague, and then kind of came to realize, as I was thinking about the way I wanted my career to progress and the long-term trajectory of my career, that I wanted to find a professional home. Because I'd found that a lot of the lawyers that are working in the Hague are working kind of in a consultant capacity because these trials, they are all-consuming. 

[00:08:12] You'll be on a trial that is essentially your entire job for that time. You're working on it, only on that case and only that case and it can sometimes take years. So, it would be a job that lasts several years, which makes it really difficult to be associated with a firm, you know? Especially with the geographical difference between The Hague and the U.S. So, I wanted to look towards a more professional home, and that's when the U.K. bar, to practice as a barrister, presented itself. And the way that barristers practice had a slightly different approach, which I felt for me was at the right mix and the right way that I wanted to approach my career.

[00:08:53] So I converted, took the courses, took the test, and converted to the U.K. bar. And that's where I'm practicing now, essentially doing the same work, but just practicing through my chambers as a barrister in London. 

John Reed [00:09:06] I'm curious; let's go back to your initial work at The Hague. How is that structured? I mean, you were an intern to what body? And I guess it's kind of crude, but if we think about the prosecutor's office as a government unit and there's usually a private attorney representing the defendant. There are also private law firms or private practitioners who are appearing before The Hague.

Haydee Dijkstal [00:09:32] Sure. Happy to explain how that works. There's a number of international criminal tribunals we often think of. The international criminal court is the one we think of first, and it's the permanent tribunal. But there was also the Special Court for Sierra Leone. There was one regarding Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and those courts are set up as institutions, and then there will be different organs of the court. So, the office of the prosecutor, the chambers for the judges, the registry. So those are the main organs.

[00:10:04] And then defense teams and victims’ teams also, I suppose, are parties in themselves, but they're viewed more externally. And I think this is because they're not a permanent organ of the court. 

[00:10:16] If an accused person is brought before the court, then at that point, a team is appointed by the court. So, usually it's a lead counsel on behalf of the accused or on behalf of a group of victims that's appointed, and then a team is formed from that. Each of those team members are appointed by the court. Oftentimes, payment is through legal aid if the accused person is indigent. They're very much appointed and working through the court.

[00:10:44] So when I said, for example, that my first position was as an intern and then later on as a junior lawyer on the Charles Taylor defense team at the Special Court of Sierra Leone, that was the defense team that was appointed by the court to act in his defense and to be a party to those proceedings. 

John Reed [00:11:03] Let's go back to the U.S. system. If a public defender or a private practitioner is essentially, you know, conscripted by the judge to represent a party. On the international level, it's not like the judge is saying, "Hmm, Charles Taylor needs somebody to represent him. Who are we going to find?" I would imagine those attorneys, those barristers, are at least applying or putting themselves out there to be considered for that type of work. It's a more formal process? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:11:30] Right. So, I'll just give you the example of the International Criminal Court. There is a list, what's called a list of counsel. You have to apply to be on that list. And it's essentially a pre-vetting procedure. By applying you have to, for example, with counsel, you have to have 10 years of experience. And that experience needs to be relevant to the type of work that you would be doing at the court. And the registry of the court will review that, and you'll be accepted to be on the list of counsel. And there's similar applications for more junior roles as well. 

[00:12:03] So going back to an accused, he's arrested and held in custody and comes before the court. Then the individual who's selected to defend or to represent that person has to be on that list of counsel. So, they are vetted as being an appropriate person to represent that person. 

[00:12:22] And then we have to remember that there's also a choice of counsel that individuals have the right to choose who their lawyers are. So oftentimes, an accused person will be given a list of the lawyers who are on that list of counsel, and they'll be able to review it and they'll have very much a say and they can meet with potential lawyers and then decide who they want to represent them. 

John Reed [00:12:44] I want to also let our listeners know that because this is only an audio podcast, I can assure them you are not wearing a wig. That even though you are a U.K. barrister, any notions they have of Masterpiece Theater, they can disabuse those notions. You're not playing that part right now. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:13:00] Not right now, but I do have a wig. 

John Reed [00:13:02] I'm glad you brought it up. I was going to ask, but I thought maybe it was a little too presumptuous, so thank you for sharing that.

Haydee Dijkstal [00:13:08] No, and it's only in certain courts that you wear it in the U.K. 

John Reed [00:13:11] That's a whole other episode. We could talk about that. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:13:13] Sure. Yeah. 

John Reed [00:13:14] As I mentioned before, the list of notable cases on your bio is dramatically and unbelievably impressive and extensive, and every one of them has a noteworthy story behind it, I'm sure. Sometimes tragic. Could you perhaps describe some of the matters you handled, and maybe a better way to qualify that, Haydee, is matters of which you're particularly proud because of the outcome or your investment of energy and time? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:13:42] Sure. We've talked so far a lot about the work that I do with international criminal law, but another area that I practice in that's also under the overall umbrella of international law is international human rights law as well. And I think this one focuses much more on representing individuals who have been impacted by human rights violations. So oftentimes the victims of human rights violations. 

[00:14:08] And I find that to be very meaningful work. And sometimes there's very much an intersection as well between international criminal law and international human rights law, especially when you're representing victims of international crimes at tribunals because their human rights are also coming into play when there's been certain crimes that have been committed against them.

[00:14:28] When I look back on what cases I take away as being impactful and maybe proud of what's happened, of course, there's the ones where you have a positive result or, I suppose, a win. And I think that would come mostly with the work that I've done for individuals who’ve been arbitrarily detained or held hostage.

[00:14:50] A few highlights would be I was on the legal team representing an individual of dual nationality, British and Iranian nationality, who was held hostage in Iran and was recognized that his detention was for hostage purposes. So represented him with applications before the U.K. government to put pressure, and internationally, and very wonderfully, he was released about two years ago and returned to his family. And just how amazing it is to see a family reunited and to see a good result. 

[00:15:26] And I've also had two other individuals, two of them who were detained in Saudi Arabia and who were recognized as being arbitrarily detained by the United Nations, who were subsequently released and returned to their family. And I think those are the cases you just have to hold on to. And, when you remember that the odds of achieving justice can sometimes take a very long time and not every case gets to that point, you hold onto those ones where you've seen such wonderful results and seen families come together again.

[00:16:01] I think also of two other things that I've quite enjoyed in my practice. One is when my work changes the law or advances the law, and I think that's probably where it comes into kind of the nerdy side where you enjoy the legal issues. 

John Reed [00:16:14] I'd say noble. I wouldn't say nerdy. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:16:17] I mean, not in a bad way. It's so interesting to kind of dig into the law and do that legal research. 

[00:16:24] There was one case at the ICC where we were involved in judicially reviewing the prosecutor's decision not to proceed with an investigation. And it was a mechanism that was in the Rome Statute that hadn't been used before. So, it was all kind of new law and really interesting on that point. 

[00:16:41] But then the other one that I was going to mention is, the wins don't come around too often. So also holding onto when you're helping individuals and helping them to give them agency in the process, and to see that impact that it's having on individuals who are victims of crimes. A lot of this comes with victim representation at the ICC, which is a really unique feature to the ICC that not all tribunals have, and something that we're not used to in the U.S. as well, that victims are actually a party to the proceeding. So, they have the right to make submissions. They have the right to call evidence, to call witnesses, to cross-examine, to make submissions. So, they very much are a party to the proceedings. And that agency that it gives them to be part of that process, to have a say in the way that the proceedings are impacting their own interests. 

[00:17:32] I've seen with some of the victims that I represent, that this really does, even if they know that it's going to be many, many years before there's potentially justice and accountability for the person that's allegedly committed crimes against them, that being part of the process really has a substantial impact on this individuals. 

[00:17:52] At the moment, I'm representing a group of Afghan victims at the ICC and recently there was a procedure which was looking at whether to restart the investigation at the ICC into Afghanistan, and we were able to make submissions directly to the judges talking about how that decision was so important to those victims and how it would impact them either way. And I think that just being able to be part of that process was very meaningful. 

[00:18:21] So I think those are the kinds of things that I look at when I'm thinking about what I value with my career and what I'm proud of to be involved with. 

John Reed [00:18:28] Your work is probably everything from investigation to trials, appeals. I'm very interested to understand the unique challenges and nuances of discovery and investigation. It's not like you can request the accident report from the car crash down the street. There are people and documents and other records that are on other continents. Maybe you could speak to that for us. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:18:54] Yeah, absolutely. It is completely different. It just can be very challenging. I agree. Especially since a lot of those documents and that evidence are not only on a completely different continent but also impacted alot of times by conflict. It might be destroyed, might be impossible to access.

[00:19:14] Those are considerations that are accounted for in the manner that these institutions approach evidence, whether it's the international criminal tribunals and courts or the international human rights mechanisms like at the UN. I think that there is an acknowledgment and awareness of the challenges that the victims have when they're trying to present a case about what's happened to them.

[00:19:40] I'll give you an example. Part of the reason I think that the International Criminal Court is a panel of judges is because the judges are able to weigh the evidence and give it value with those considerations in mind. And an interesting feature about the ICC and other criminal tribunals is that, for example, hearsay evidence is accepted.

[00:20:03] I think this is a reality that comes from the fact that if you require those strict hearsay rules, that it might be that the prosecution or our victims are just simply not able to collect that evidence. But of course, in accepting hearsay evidence or even double hearsay evidence, the judges are professionally trained to assign it the correct value. So of course, you know, hearsay evidence wouldn't be assigned as much value as direct evidence. It's things like that. 

[00:20:33] But yes, there is an aspect of investigations that comes into play when, for example, I have clients that approach me and say, this has happened to me. What are my remedies? Where can we look? I'm not an investigator though. So, it's oftentimes about connecting with people who are investigators and building a team to address these cases. 

[00:20:56] Going back to the case about Afghanistan, that's one thing that we're very much looking at right now is there's been approaches to international tribunals to address the issues in that case, but then to also at the same time, work with investigators to try to continue to build the evidence and submit it to the prosecution or to the human rights tribunals in order to assist them. Part of what we're also encountering in addition to the challenges of investigations is also the resources of not only the teams that I'm on, but also the tribunals themselves oftentimes are very — I don't want to say underfunded, but the resources are precious. There's so much that can be addressed and only so many resources to assign to each of these things. And so, while we might think of the ICC as, well, they can investigate all crimes. They can't investigate every single one that comes in the door. 

[00:21:52] So my part as an advocate for individuals who are victims is to also try to see what we can do on our end to gather that evidence, and also gather it before too much time passes as well with the knowledge that justice takes a lot of time. So, we don't want to wait until it might be addressed later and then that evidence is gone.

John Reed [00:22:14] You mentioned earlier about a matter consuming you in terms of your time. It becomes your focus. What does your docket look like right now? I mean, how many active matters? And I realize because some of these take so long, they're technically active although they're not necessarily advancing quickly.

Haydee Dijkstal [00:22:31] Well, I think that my practice in the cases that I'm working on at any time would really depend on what stage the case is in. So, I mentioned before that some of these international tribunal cases can be your entire job because they do take up that much time, and that's often when you're in the trial phase. So, you need to be in court every day, and then after court, you're prepping for the next day or writing motions. 

[00:22:58] But what I'm working on at the moment is either pretrial issues or cases before international tribunals, or more limited submissions and cases before human rights bodies. So, it does allow me to take on more cases at one time.

[00:23:16] And of course, these cases kind of ebb and flow as well, so you might be working a lot on one case to make a submission, and then you have to wait for a while. Sometimes that can be a long while before you get a response or a decision. So, you know, you're working on other cases at the same time.

[00:23:32] So I'd say that I'm working on a number of different cases and it's a mix between international criminal law and international human rights law. But just to give you a flavor of what I'm working on, I'm working on a few victims’ cases. I already mentioned the victims’ cases at the ICC concerning Afghanistan but also representing victims from Ukraine as well. And that's all in the pretrial investigation stage and helping to gather that evidence and submit it to the prosecution, and also help them with that formal process of victim participation of the ICC. 

[00:24:07] But also human rights cases involving torture and free speech. I already mentioned a lot with arbitrary detention, but also representing indigenous peoples and issues with natural resources or cultural heritage as well. That's one that I very much focus on. There's a number of different issues and it's really interesting to be able to have a wide array of human rights issues that I'm working on. 

John Reed [00:24:32] For lack of a better term, are you a boots-on-the-ground investigator? Obviously, you work with people who are doing investigations, they speak the language if there's a language barrier. How often are you traveling and interacting with victims’ groups or accused defendants or whoever it may be? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:24:49] I think it just depends on the case. I do a lot with taking statements or working directly with the witnesses or the victims to gather that evidence. But if it's going to come to maybe more technical investigations, and that's where I'd really want to look to the expertise of those who are really trained as investigators and are able to do that properly. We need to make sure that whatever's gathered is done so in a manner that can be used before the court and submitted before the court and meets all those requirements for a trial later. So, I do want to rely on the expertise of those individuals who are trained to do that.

John Reed [00:25:27] In criminal cases, there's obviously imprisonment, sometimes capital punishment if that's involved. In civil cases, they're usually damages and equitable relief. What are the different types of relief that you are seeking for your clients and the matters you handle? It's not always money. So, I'm curious as to the mix.

Haydee Dijkstal [00:25:48] Well, let's approach this from the angle of representing victims. And I think it's going to be different whether you're looking at remedies that fall under international criminal laws and more of a traditional trial procedure and outcome or international human rights. 

[00:26:04] What I've found often in working with victims is that one of the main priorities, because of course when you first have a client that approaches you or a group, you want to ask them what their goals are and very much be guided by that instead of imposing your own thoughts about what they should be pursuing. And the things that often come up are they want the truth. They want justice and recognition of what's happened to them, and those are often a big priority. There's always, well, if there's a chance for reparations, which is I think the way that we would call that damages in the international system, then that's fine. But really the goal is the truth, recognition, justice, and accountability.

[00:26:49] Under international human rights law, there is a recognized right to the truth. And a recognized right to a remedy as well. I think their goals are really based in those rights. As for any kind of reparations, for example, at the International Criminal Court, there is an entire phase of the proceedings after the trial and the appeal that's the reparations phase. And so, the court has set up a trust fund for the victims and does a whole assessment on how to provide reparations for those victims who are recognized as having been harmed by the action of the accused, for which that accused person was found guilty for. 

[00:27:34] And reparations can come in all shapes and sizes. It can be monetary, but then there's also the question, if it's individual monetary reparations or if it goes to a group or to a community or if it's more of reparations that are given in order to make those victims whole by having programs or rebuilding or there's so many different ways that reparations can be given and there's a whole analysis about, every location is different. What they experienced is different, their cultures are different. So, really, taking into account what would be the best way to try to at least come somewhat close. I don't know if victims can ever quite be made whole from what they've experienced but try to get to that point. 

[00:28:22] And of course, the views of victims as well need to be taken into account. And that's another phase where victim representation comes into play, that you represent the victims who you're acting on behalf of to get their views, their concerns, their thoughts about how reparations would best help them. 

John Reed [00:28:40] I'm heartened to hear you talk about the right to truth. I know part of your experience is your involvement with truth and reconciliation, commissions and tribunals, and things like that. We tend to gloss over truth in this country a little bit too much in favor of a result, and we lose that. 

[00:28:56] A few things stand out about your experience. There are many, but a few things in particular. First, that your work is not limited to a specific country or region. Your docket, if you will, is global. Is that unusual for the relatively few barristers and lawyers who do what you do? Or did you decide to have that encompassing mindset or approach? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:29:21] I don't think that it's necessarily unusual, but then it's also not unusual for a lawyer to approach their practice where they focus on a certain region as well. What I'd say is where I view my expertise or where I can best advise is on the law, on the principles and the rules and provisions of international criminal law and international human rights law, and then apply that to whatever situation of a client who comes through the door and asks for help.

[00:29:57] What I don't feel comfortable doing is saying that I could be viewed as an expert on another individual's situation, their country, their experience, potentially the conflict that they've gone through. And so, it's for me to look at the evidence, to hear from them about what's happened and how this fits into their particular situation, but then to apply the law to that. And I think it's just been quite organic the way that it's happened. I don't think that there's been a certain region that I've focused on because that's where I wanted my practice to develop.

[00:30:35] It's just been that certain cases come in the door and then the next one. And as long as I feel as though I have the expertise to handle it and have the information to do a proper job on the case, then I do feel as though, the regional — it can be anywhere in the world.

[00:30:54] I think going right back to where we started about being interested in international issues, it really comes down to the fact that what's so interesting is the different people that you interact with, the different cultures. And you know, on a more personal level, I find that's very rewarding to get to know other individuals and groups and cultures and traditions around the world and to support finding justice for them in the way that's best for them as well and to listen to that. 

John Reed [00:31:23] The other thing that struck me, only because it's unusual in this country, is that you are representing parties on essentially both sides of the courtroom, those who are victims, those who are allegedly the wrongdoers, the bad actors. Is that also unusual? I would think, if anything, it gives you immense credibility that you have fairness within you to see both sides of an argument and pursue justice in whatever form.

Haydee Dijkstal [00:31:50] Well, thank you for that. I don't know if it's necessarily unusual, not for everyone that practices internationally. And remember that when we're talking about a tribunal or human rights mechanisms, there's lawyers from all over the world with different legal traditions that are working there, so for some, including U.S. lawyers, there is more of a tradition on once you work for one side of the system, then you tend to stick with that side. And for others, it's very natural. 

[00:32:18] For example, in the U.K., when I practice domestically, one day, I could be prosecuting, the next day, I could be defending. And that's much more natural. And so, there's all sorts of lawyers that are practicing and different ways of going about it that I often do see a lot of other colleagues that are open to representing different sides.

[00:32:37] Of course, you know, we have to check our conflicts and make sure that there's no conflict of interest by representing different parties. I do think it's been very positive to represent different sides. So ,victims kind of has a little bit of a prosecutorial approach to it because you're, you're looking towards justice and accountability against the accused, but then also the representing of government interests as well. And then also representing organizations like NGOs that want to make submissions before various bodies. 

[00:33:07] And I would say that what I value in being able to do that is that I do think it makes me more informed. It makes me more sensitive to all of the issues to understand the context and the dynamics and pressures of all the different parties, and then also be able to foresee the types of issues that are coming up.

[00:33:27] I'm glad that you raised this because this is something that I really feel strongly about. When we're doing this type of work, we do it, I think, because we believe in the system as a whole and wanting to strengthen that system. 

[00:33:41] And so I look, for example, with the U.K. code of conduct for barristers. What they remind us of is that justice depends on advocates who act fearlessly and independently and competently to further the best interest of their clients, but always subject to the duty to the court. So, we're not there for one side or another. Of course, we're acting fearlessly for our clients and trying to achieve their goals but subject to our duty to the court, to that system in the end.

[00:34:15] And I think when I've represented victims, I've always been very impressed by the fact that they acknowledge that while they are very passionate about achieving justice, they understand the need also for fair trials and for fair trial rights for the accused. So, achieving justice should never be done in a manner which could ultimately mean that the result is undermined as an unfair process or a sham that... What is the point for the victims to have an outcome that could ultimately be dismissed or overturned on appeal? Having a good result and having justice and accountability is best if it's tested along the way. If the accused person is afforded the best lawyer and is able to make all of the arguments and all of their rights are upheld because it's going to make that decision for them so much stronger.

[00:35:07] So we all have a part to play. And I also think when you're open to representing all sides, it does promote this kind of congeniality between professionals as well, where we do act fearlessly for our client, but we do so in also acknowledging that we're all there as professionals playing our part in the system. And so, I think that openness between professionals as well can actually be to the benefit of all of our clients and make for a better process. So, I do feel strongly about that, and I've been very glad to be able to be involved with representation on all sides. 

John Reed [00:35:44] I appreciate the explanation. You perfectly encapsulated it.

[00:35:47] How do matters come to you? There are all sorts of bad acts, actual or alleged, that happen in the world, and people need representation. Does your phone ring off the hook? How do people know where to find you? How do matters come to your threshold? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:36:04] That's a difficult question. I don't know where to start on that one. I think it's something that I have developed slowly throughout my practice. 

[00:36:13] These are serious matters. There was no way that when I was more junior I was going to represent clients just by myself and feel as though I was competent to fully do that. So, when you're starting out, it's very much being part of a team and being led by those who are experts in the field and learning from them. And slowly, you grow your reputation, you grow your network, get to know different organizations that are working on these issues. And then slowly, cases start to come to you in your own right. I still oftentimes will work on teams with others. 

[00:36:46] And so I do think it comes from all directions and it's always a little bit of a hustle of needing to continue to reach out to your connections and to build your network and stay in contact with all the different organizations and in individuals working in this field. But it, it slowly grows, I suppose, is what I would say. 

John Reed [00:37:07] Do you have your own set of criteria for evaluating whether you'll become involved with a case? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:37:15] When an individual or a group or community or an organization approaches me about representation, of course, I'll look back on my various cases and make sure there's no conflict on the substance. But then it's also going to be a matter of whether there is an arguable case and then there is sufficient evidence or at least the possibility of working with that individual to get that evidence in order to take certain legal action. So, part of an instruction might be that we will take certain steps to look at the evidence, the more investigative stage with a team, and then if we assess that there is enough to move on to the next phase of approaching any legal remedies, then we will do so if the evidence supports that. I think that would be a consideration certainly that I would look at when, you know, there is due diligence checks that we have to do as well. So, looking at any sanctions. We check all of those things against the clients that we're representing to make sure that we're not coming against any of those.

[00:38:20] And then also resources as well. Can I adequately with the knowledge that these cases are oftentimes going to be for the long term, this is a commitment. So, you know, kind of a relationship with the client that is maybe years and years in the making. Are there the resources? Do I have the capacity to undertake this case and do a good job for that individual? So those would be considerations as well. 

John Reed [00:38:43] Forgive a crude question. How do you get paid? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:38:46] Again, it depends on the case. It can sometimes be from an organization who's introducing me to a certain issue, whether that's a group of victims or an individual victim. So, sometimes, organizations will provide funding. Sometimes individuals will as well. If you're instructed or appointed as a lawyer at one of the tribunals, then there is a possibility for legal aid as another way of funding. 

[00:39:15] And then there's also pro bono. Pro bono is really important, and I think it's a good thing for everyone to consider as part of their practice. But with the reality and acknowledgement that we all do need to pay the bills as well, and this work is valuable. And also lawyers who dedicate their time also deserve to be paid for what they are doing. So, to not have the presumption of pro bono, but to assess when it's really needed. And so I do have a certain percentage of my practice that goes towards that. But it really just depends on the case. 

John Reed [00:39:47] I said before that behind many of the cases you handle are heart-wrenching, tragic, terrifying stories and accounts. I imagine it's not work that you can just leave at the office.

[00:39:59] How do you manage the sometimes emotional toll and maintain some semblance of balance? Please tell us you have an unusual hobby or extracurricular that takes you away, or I'm just curious how you deal, how you cope. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:40:13] I really appreciate this question because I think it's so important, this mental wellbeing, resilience. There have been some studies about the impact of this kind of work on lawyers and other professionals who are working in human rights or international crimes, and that it really can legitimately take a toll. And it's something that needs to be managed and be deliberate about your practice to make sure that you're protecting yourself. Because if you're not well, then you're not able to represent and help your client to the best of your abilities. 

[00:40:46] Now, saying that, I would have to admit that I haven't always been the best at it. I've sometimes let the emotional toll, the pressure get to me and bleed into personal time. As you said, it can be very difficult to leave the office and leave it there and go home and not think about these issues. 

[00:41:09] I think it comes from several different perspectives. A lot of the substance of what we're looking at is very heavy, and it's heartbreaking not only on an individual level for the people that you're working with, but also kind of the existential level where you just think, what is the state of the world right now? That can be so difficult. 

[00:41:26] But then also I think when it comes to kind of this private practice of representing directly individuals and groups, there is also the pressure that comes with it when you're working with these individuals and they're really telling you how important this is to them, and these are individuals who are traumatized and who are anxious and worried and whether it's the victim themselves or oftentimes the family members as, let's say for example, a person who's arbitrarily detained in the country far away, and they're stressed and legitimately worried about what's going to happen to their loved ones and they reach out to you and tell you about the stress that they're going through. It can be a lot of pressure. 

[00:42:08] You really do feel the weight of the work that you're doing and the representation. But I think we definitely have to think about... I was speaking to a group recently about this topic and what I thought about was the way that we practice empathy. Just being very deliberate and to think carefully about the way that we do it. You know, empathy is such an important part of this work, and it's crucial to fully understand what this person's going through, the context of it, in order to make your best submissions on their behalf as well. But to make sure that you're doing it in a way that doesn't internalize it for yourself. 

[00:42:45] So those are things that I think about. And I think a lot of times what we're seeing on social media either is relevant to what I'm working on, or at least it's similar in nature, so that it could be somewhat triggering, and you just can't quite step away from it. So just trying to force myself to put the phone down, switch off the social media, go for a walk, get that fresh air. Of course, like exercise and hobbies and seeing friends is important, too. 

John Reed [00:43:12] And a week in Wyoming probably is a great thing too. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:43:15]  Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. 

John Reed [00:43:18] Again, forgive another question that may be intimate. The matters you handle are high profile and where the allegations involve seriously bad acts, do you ever worry about your safety? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:43:31] It's always something to consider. I probably worry more so about the safety of my clients or their families or witnesses. Of course, it's gonna depend on the case.

John Reed [00:43:42] Haydee, I have to tell you, I am myself very world-weary right now. You kind of alluded to it in what you were talking about before. Domestic and international politics. There are increasing threats to civil rights and civil liberties here and around the world. There's a visible shift to the authoritarian right in many countries, including the U.S. I'm struggling, myself, to be hopeful, and I'm sure you wish for a day when your job is obsolete. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:44:08] Of course.

John Reed [00:44:09] But until that day, how do you remain optimistic, hopeful, at least not pessimistic? 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:44:15] It's a really good question because there are certainly days where you can feel the weight of everything and really get down about it. And I think that's only natural and it's actually good to sometimes feel those emotions and to sit in them and to realize how important and heavy everything is. 

[00:44:33] But having hope is also very important as well, and is something that I also speak to when I'm managing expectations with my own clients. You want to have a realistic approach where you're accepting the odds and the procedure and the time it's going to take, but then also maintain that hope as well. I think that I gain a lot of hope and optimism from the individuals that I work with. They can be absolutely incredible people who have gone through so much but are still hopeful about their own futures.

[00:45:08] I think what's really interesting is a lot of victims who had something absolutely terrible happen to them, and it can be so easy to say, I just want to get on with life. I want to forget about this and move on. That they're so steadfast in their goals of seeing a better world, essentially through justice. To make sure that accountability is for the purpose of making sure that nobody else has to face these kinds of crimes in the future anymore.

[00:45:37] And with some groups and individuals that pursuit of justice has put them in even more harm or danger or risk. So, the fact that they're so adamant and steadfast with that goal of justice, I think is really inspiring, and it does give me a lot of energy, I suppose, to keep working for them and doing my best to not only help them with their goals but to also support, as I said before, support the systems that allowed them to get to that place.

John Reed [00:46:07] This has been an extraordinary gift. You are extraordinary. Thank you for sharing your time and your experiences with us, and most importantly, thank you for the absolutely essential work that you do. Truly. I appreciate it. 

Haydee Dijkstal [00:46:21] Thank you. It's really kind of you. It's been a pleasure to speak to you and really wonderful. Thank you very much. 

John Reed [00:46:28] Listeners, I encourage you to visit Sticky Lawyers to learn more about Haydee, her practice, and her achievements. It is worth it. There is a lot there, far more than what we've covered today.

[00:46:40] Whether you're a first-time listener or devoted stickler, what we call our Sticky Lawyers fans, please go to wherever you get your podcasts now, like right now. And click the “follow” button. Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube, wherever. When you do that, you'll be sure to get new episodes and you'll be letting us know that you like what you hear and that you want to hear more, and we would appreciate that.

[00:47:03] Until next time, I'm John Reed and you've been listening to Sticky Lawyers.

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